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Kennedy and King at the Mountain

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#1 of 7

     Posted 1/11/09 11:41 AM   
Wizop Tom Sims
 
From  Wizop Tom Sims  Posts 3770  Last Jul-6
To  All      [Msg # 166707.1 ]    
I was just browsing, looking for that quote from  Aeschylus on the awful grace of God. Naturally, most links were to Bobby Kennedy's speech on that terrible night in 1968 when he had to inform the gathered crowd of the death of Martin Luther King, whose holiday is coming soon. During these days we commemorate King's life. Mel has started a marvelous discussion of King's words. I think that at this very time, with so much tension and violence in the world, the voices of Kennedy and King must be heard and revisited in earnest.

Perhaps one of the issues Kennedy raised might spark a discussion among you:

1. To what extent does suffering lead to wisdom and become for us, a gift of grace? How do we embrace that so that we become better rather than bitter. I actually wrote a bit about this in my blog from a Christian perspective (From which RFK and JFK emerged, but not Aeschylus, born around 525 BC).

2. In what ways are we still dealing with issues of polarization in our nation and world? How can we bridge these gaps through love and understanding? (We have always held that this forum ought to be a laboratory for working this process out - We come from very different places, but seek to interject an atmosphere of respect.)

3. I am intrigued by this line that RFK quoted from the Greeks:  "to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. " Is this sometimes the best we can expect? How does this happen? What is our role? To what extent is there something inside of each of us to be "tamed" and "made gentle?"

4. How do all of these issues come together into one principle and what is the principle?

I am amazed that Kennedy was able to formulate this address "off the cuff." These ideas had long past moved from his head to his heart. He had come to embody them in much the same way that MLK had come to embody his. If you consider the lives of these two men, you will see a journey in their thinking and commitments. How are we on such a journey and how is the journey with the ideas we embrace shaping us?  Is this a part of the suffering that is graciously leading us toward wisdom and thus, toward peace and justice? Are we becoming kinder and gentler as we struggle?

How do these ideas transcend our own diverse worldviews and find application in each of our lives and various contexts?

Think on these things and let us eavesdrop on your thinking.

Here is the printed speech:

Ladies and Gentlemen - I'm only going to talk to you just for a minute or so this evening. Because...

I have some very sad news for all of you, and I think sad news for all of our fellow citizens, and people who love peace all over the world, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis, Tennessee.

Martin Luther King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow human beings. He died in the cause of that effort. In this difficult day, in this difficult time for the United States, it's perhaps well to ask what kind of a nation we are and what direction we want to move in.

For those of you who are black - considering the evidence evidently is that there were white people who were responsible - you can be filled with bitterness, and with hatred, and a desire for revenge.

We can move in that direction as a country, in greater polarization - black people amongst blacks, and white amongst whites, filled with hatred toward one another. Or we can make an effort, as Martin Luther King did, to understand and to comprehend, and replace that violence, that stain of bloodshed that has spread across our land, with an effort to understand, compassion and love.

For those of you who are black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and mistrust of the injustice of such an act, against all white people, I would only say that I can also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. I had a member of my family killed, but he was killed by a white man.

But we have to make an effort in the United States, we have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond these rather difficult times.

My favorite poet was Aeschylus. He once wrote: "Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God."

What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness, but is love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or whether they be black.

(Interrupted by applause)

So I ask you tonight to return home, to say a prayer for the family of Martin Luther King, yeah that's true, but more importantly to say a prayer for our own country, which all of us love - a prayer for understanding and that compassion of which I spoke. We can do well in this country. We will have difficult times. We've had difficult times in the past. And we will have difficult times in the future. It is not the end of violence; it is not the end of lawlessness; and it's not the end of disorder.

But the vast majority of white people and the vast majority of black people in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings that abide in our land.

(Interrupted by applause)

Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.

Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people. Thank you very much. (Applause)

Robert F. Kennedy - April 4, 1968


Edited 1/11/09   by  Wizop Tom Sims
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#2 of 7

     Posted 1/11/09 2:01 PM   
Sysop Chris Eyre
 
From  Sysop Chris Eyre  Posts 10979  Last Nov-12
To  Wizop Tom Sims      [Msg # 166707.2 Message 166707.2 replying to 166707.1 166707.1 ]    

Tom,

>> Perhaps one of the issues Kennedy raised might spark a discussion among you:

1. To what extent does suffering lead to wisdom and become for us, a gift of grace? How do we embrace that so that we become better rather than bitter. I actually wrote a bit about this in
my blog from a Christian perspective (From which RFK and JFK emerged, but not Aeschylus, born around 525 BC).

2. In what ways are we still dealing with issues of polarization in our nation and world? How can we bridge these gaps through love and understanding? (We have always held that this forum ought to be a laboratory for working this process out - We come from very different places, but seek to interject an atmosphere of respect.)

3. I am intrigued by this line that RFK quoted from the Greeks:  "to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. " Is this sometimes the best we can expect? How does this happen? What is our role? To what extent is there something inside of each of us to be "tamed" and "made gentle?"

4. How do all of these issues come together into one principle and what is the principle?

Never do things by halves, eh? <g>



"Anything which does not kill you makes you stronger" (Friedrich Nietzsche). "No pain, no gain" (anon). The second usually arises in the context of something you do to yourself, in the form of exercise, the first is more directed to the actions of others - but the effect is the same or similar. We're inclined not to blame ourselves for putting ourselves through the pain of exercise (well, I may except myself from that particular generality <g>) so why blame others for causing us suffering? More to the point, what good does blaming anyone do us? It seems to me that it's inclined to prevent us profiting from whatever strength we've gained from the test. Indeed, unless we put aside bitterness and recrimination, we may lose what benefit can be gleaned from any adversity.



"Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner" (to understand everything is to forgive everything) seems to me to work well. "How is he similar to me?" needs at the very least to stand alongside "How is he different from me?". Difference at the expense of similarity leads to polarisation. But it's sometimes very hard to examine yourself sufficiently to find similarity, and easier to make someone the "other", the varelse. "No pain, no gain", though, eh?



I'm more inclined to the view of the innate badness of humanity than that of the innate goodness, but either is a polarised view. We're all an admixture of savagery and gentleness, and have the ability to modify our own behaviour and outlook. But it can't be imposed very easily, and I think it foolish to assume the best (though, to be fair, that frequently seems to breed the desired action...)



If there's a general principle, it's in remembering that human beings are never varelse.


<edit to replace underlines with rules to fix window-forced-wide problem>


Edited 1/11/09   by  Cassy B. [Staff]
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#3 of 7

     Posted 1/11/09 2:13 PM   
Shawna [Staff]
 
From  Shawna [Staff]  Posts 2461  Last Nov-17
To  Wizop Tom Sims      [Msg # 166707.3 Message 166707.3 replying to 166707.1 166707.1 ]    

2. In what ways are we still dealing with issues of polarization in our nation and world? How can we bridge these gaps through love and understanding?

I'm not optimistic that gaps *can* be bridged.  In almost every area in life, we're challenged to "pick a side."  This begins when we're very young, and follows us throughout adulthood.  The problem with side-choosing is that, whether or not you form the actual words, others assume you believe the "other side" is wrong.  If that's where they are standing, the division is glaringly obvious.  Years ago wasn't a man killed in an argument over which was better, VHS or Beta?

As humans we're so easily offended, and for some reason we do so love to carry the offenses of others...even generations later.  Hatred is born of fear, and we don't like to have weaknesses, so the hatred allows us to feel empowered. 

If we cannot replace our hatred with love on a personal level, there is no hope for global unity.

If we cannot begin today, letting the past go, then we cannot possibly overcome the bitter divisions our ancestors created through their aberrations, however "good" they believed their intentions to be.  Reminding someone that their religion perpetuates hatred based on the actions of a few only causes more division.

If we say yes and amen to the RFK speech, then in the next breath belittle another for his beliefs, or become angry with a neighbor because leaves from his tree fall onto your lawn, or shout at your child for spilling his milk...what was the point of saying yes and amen to begin with?

We human busy ourselves pointing out the flaws in others, which is a lifelong hobby, since we're all so flawed.  But we rarely stop the practice long enough to look inward.  If we're honest, we will come to the conclusion that the world doesn't really *owe* us anything, that we're responsible for our actions, and that blaming others for our woes will not cause those woes to dissipate.

For a follower of Christ, it all begins the humble act of laying aside our fleshly desires and allowing the Prince of Peace to replace the darkness with light.

 

We love because He first loved us.

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#4 of 7

     Posted 1/11/09 9:03 PM   
Wizop Tom Sims
 
From  Wizop Tom Sims  Posts 3770  Last Jul-6
To  Shawna [Staff]      [Msg # 166707.4 Message 166707.4 replying to 166707.3 166707.3 ]    
Shawna,

What you say about choosing up sides and marginalizing people is so true.

>>If we cannot replace our hatred with love on a personal level, there is no hope for global unity.<<

You are right on with this.

You leave me dumbfounded with the depth of these insights and the eloquence with which you have presented them. I wish all could make it mandatory reading for many,. I can't begin to say which of these well chosen words I like most.

The motives that drive us to be competitive in our ambitions, vindictive in our relationships, or restrictive in our assessment of which humans are worthy of our concern are all intertwined.

>>For a follower of Christ, it all begins the humble act of laying aside our fleshly desires and allowing the Prince of Peace to replace the darkness with light.<<

That is my conviction as well.

- Tom
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#5 of 7

     Posted 1/11/09 9:07 PM   
Wizop Tom Sims
 
From  Wizop Tom Sims  Posts 3770  Last Jul-6
To  Sysop Chris Eyre      [Msg # 166707.5 Message 166707.5 replying to 166707.2 166707.2 ]    
>>Never do things by halves, eh? <g><<

I guess not, my friend.

>>If there's a general principle, it's in remembering that human beings are never varelse.<<

Now there is an insight. I will leave it to others to look that up. I had to <g>. Then I found you had already linked to the same article I found <chuckle>.


>>"Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner" (to understand everything is to forgive everything) <<

This is quite true.

Well said and well thought.

Thanks.

-  Tom



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#6 of 7

     Posted 1/12/09 9:08 AM   
Sysop Chris Eyre
 
From  Sysop Chris Eyre  Posts 10979  Last Nov-12
To  Wizop Tom Sims      [Msg # 166707.6 Message 166707.6 replying to 166707.5 166707.5 ]    

T>> Now there is an insight. I will leave it to others to look that up. I had to <g>. Then I found you had already linked to the same article I found <chuckle>.

I first came across it through the Orson Scott Card novel series starting with "Ender's Game" (which is linked to from the link I provided). There's a good account of the whole "hierarchy of alienness" here. Much of that series of books (which I'm certain is informed a fair bit by Card's LDS faith) deals with how to forge links with and understand those who are different - and in that series, a lot more different than anything we come across within our own species - in particular focussing on whether and how those perceived as varelse can become thought of as ramen.

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#7 of 7

     Posted 1/12/09 11:15 AM   
Wizop Tom Sims
 
From  Wizop Tom Sims  Posts 3770  Last Jul-6
To  Sysop Chris Eyre      [Msg # 166707.7 Message 166707.7 replying to 166707.6 166707.6 ]    
Chris,

It is uncanny how often science fiction is affective in speaking to our human condition in the here and now.

Card was a guest for a conference on this forum 10 or 12 years ago.

- Tom
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Kennedy and King at the Mountain

  
 
     

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