Investing for Growth Forum

     Go!
Prospero Blocks


 

Chat Center

Challenge Club
Topic: Challenge Club Meetings
Community Chat
Topic: Anything
Workshop Chat
Topic: Discuss topics from the current forum workshop

Board Folders

Forum Help & Announcements: 1857 msgs in 283 dscns, Latest: Dec-21 Forum Help ...
1857 msgs in 283 dscns
Latest: Dec-21
BI Software Help: 2222 msgs in 281 dscns, Latest: Feb-8 BI Software Help
2222 msgs in 281 dscns
Latest: Feb-8
BI Newbies: 2723 msgs in 229 dscns, Latest: Jan-31 BI Newbies
2723 msgs in 229 dscns
Latest: Jan-31
Investment Clubs: 1256 msgs in 195 dscns, Latest: Oct-22 Investment Clubs
1256 msgs in 195 dscns
Latest: Oct-22
Economy & Markets: 2999 msgs in 319 dscns, Latest: Feb-8 Economy & Markets
2999 msgs in 319 dscns
Latest: Feb-8
Selling Decisions: 1437 msgs in 111 dscns, Latest: Jan-6 Selling Decisions
1437 msgs in 111 dscns
Latest: Jan-6
Stock Studies: 15062 msgs in 1259 dscns, Latest: Feb-6 Stock Studies
15062 msgs in 1259 dscns
Latest: Feb-6
Community Square: 8872 msgs in 908 dscns, Latest: Feb-8 Community Square
8872 msgs in 908 dscns
Latest: Feb-8
Computers & Internet: 2399 msgs in 243 dscns, Latest: Jan-12 Computers ...
2399 msgs in 243 dscns
Latest: Jan-12
BI Methods: 2420 msgs in 159 dscns, Latest: Feb-8 BI Methods
2420 msgs in 159 dscns
Latest: Feb-8
Misc. Financial Topics: 16126 msgs in 1182 dscns, Latest: 12:00 PMMisc. Financia...
16126 msgs in 1182 dscns
Latest: 12:00 PM
Events: 843 msgs in 107 dscns, Latest: Dec-22 Events
843 msgs in 107 dscns
Latest: Dec-22
Book Discussions: 2265 msgs in 64 dscns, Latest: Jan-20 Book Discussions
2265 msgs in 64 dscns
Latest: Jan-20
Passive Investing: 7201 msgs in 214 dscns, Latest: Feb-6 Passive Investing
7201 msgs in 214 dscns
Latest: Feb-6
Message Area
BI Newbies

Preferred Procedure Workshop

 Subscribe SubscribeCreate Poll Create PollGet a printer-friendly version of this discussion Print Discussion 

#1 of 95

     Posted 8/8/05 11:05 AM   
Ann Cuneaz
 
From  Ann Cuneaz  Posts 20  Last 8/11/06
To  All      [Msg # 29336.1 ]    

Understanding the Preferred Procedure Workshop – Day 1

Over the next few days we will learn about “The Preferred Procedure.” For the uninitiated, the Preferred Procedure is simply a method to make “revenue-based” earnings per share projections 5 years into the future.

 

I consider this to be a BASIC workshop.  Many people regard the Preferred Procedure to be an advanced topic, but I don’t.  The only prerequisite is a basic understanding of the SSG.  Newbies might want to consider this workshop to be the next step.

 

The attached file, Day1_slides.pdf, contains several pictures that are referred to in the text.

Session 1 – Understanding the Income Statement

Before we get into the Preferred Procedure we need to discuss a little background.   A basic understanding of the income statement is critical to understanding the Preferred Procedure, so that is where we will start.  Then we will take a new look at the visual analysis (graph) of the SSG to help us “see” how a company operates.

Introduction to the Income Statement

The income statement summarizes sales and expenses over a period of time, usually one quarter or one fiscal year.  The top line is the total amount of money the company received from sales of products or services to their customers, and is generally called sales or revenue, depending on the nature of the company’s business.  The bottom line is called net income (or net earnings or net profit).  Net income is the final profit after all the expenses and taxes have been deducted from sales.

 

The income statement is designed to be read in a step-down manner, like walking down a set of stairs.  Each step down, after the revenue figure, is a deduction of one or more expenses.

 

Simplified Income Statement

 

Revenue

$

1000

 

-

...[Message truncated]

Attachments
Name:   Day1_slides.pdfSize:   1368 K
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#2 of 95

     Posted 8/8/05 2:30 PM   
Ev
 
From  Ev  Posts 2538  Last Feb-8
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.2 Message 29336.2 replying to 29336.1 29336.1 ]    
Hello Ann and welcome to the Forum Community.
I would like to sincerely thank you for doing this really important workshop.
I say "really important" because it seems to me that even before  the SSG "form" is ever presented there should be a basic understanding of how a company makes money - what are earnings, where do they come from, what does profit mean, and so on. 

If I would have had your income statement explanation from the start I believe the SSG would have made a lot more sense. It took me quite awhile to understand where on earth these numbers come from.  It may have been just me, not being particularly number/math proficient. 

Your lesson is very well written - excellent.  Looking forward to your presentation. 

Participants - if you have dreaded, or said "I just can't get these financial statements" well, here is a perfect place to start.
Best - Ev
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#3 of 95

     Posted 8/8/05 2:39 PM   
NancyC, Admin
 
From  NancyC, Admin  Posts 10143  Last 6/9/09
To  Ev      [Msg # 29336.3 Message 29336.3 replying to 29336.2 29336.2 ]    
If I would have had your income statement explanation from the start I believe the SSG would have made a lot more sense.
That was true for me too.  I just dutifully took numbers from Value Line, crunched them on my calculator, and put them on the SSG.  That was easy, but I had no idea what "pretax profit" meant or where it came from.  The first time I saw a press release with a reasonably simple financial statement, a light bulb went off.

Nancy Crays
BetterInvesting Community ~ Dog Lovers Community ~ Cat Lovers Community
 
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#4 of 95

     Posted 8/8/05 4:57 PM   
Nancy Isaacs
 
From  Nancy Isaacs  Posts 7112  Last Feb-6
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.4 Message 29336.4 replying to 29336.1 29336.1 ]    

Welcome, Ann, and thanks for taking the time from your busy schedule to educate us in the use of the preferred procedure.  I'm glad you're spending some time on the inter-relationship of the three lines on the visual analysis.  When I open an SSG for a new company, I like to look at pretax profit relative to sales on the front before looking at section 2A.  Then 2A becomes nothing more than a confirmation of what I already see on side one. 

I am really looking forward to this workshop...always something new to learn. 

 

Nancy Isaacs

Long term investing made simple
BetterInvesting Community

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#5 of 95

     Posted 8/8/05 6:27 PM   
Jim Thomas
 
From  Jim Thomas  Posts 1762  Last Jan-21
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.5 Message 29336.5 replying to 29336.1 29336.1 ]    

> We’ll also demystify that scary Preferred Procedure calculator screen in Toolkit.

For those who don't have Toolkit, there is an interactive Preferred Procedure calculator at
http://biwiki.editme.com/calcIncomeStatement

-Jim Thomas
Edited 8/8/05   by  Jim Thomas
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#6 of 95

     Posted 8/8/05 9:08 PM   
dianeg
 
From  dianeg  Posts 410  Last 6/13/08
To  Jim Thomas      [Msg # 29336.6 Message 29336.6 replying to 29336.5 29336.5 ]    

The BI Wiki calculator does not appear to handle preferred dividends . They may not be common but you shouldn't ignore them when they do exist.

Also preferred dividends are not an expense. They are an allocation of net profits. They are subtracted from net profits as preferred shareholders do have preferential rights ahead of common shareholders. The remaining net profits available for common shareholders is what is used as the starting point for calculating earnings per common share. 

(The situation can become extremely messy if you are dealing with convertible preferred.)

Diane Graese

Las Vegas

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#7 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 10:46 AM   
Ann Cuneaz
 
From  Ann Cuneaz  Posts 20  Last 8/11/06
To  All      [Msg # 29336.7 Message 29336.7 replying to 29336.1 29336.1 ]    

Understanding the Preferred Procedure Workshop – Day 2

Today we will get into the details of the Preferred Procedure calculation, going through an example step-by-step.  We will also take a close look at the Preferred Procedure calculator screen in Toolkit, and try to figure out what all those boxes are for.

 

The attached file, Day2_slides.pdf, contains several pictures that are referred to in the text.

The Preferred Procedure

The preferred procedure is simply another way to calculate future earnings.  It’s also known as the “revenue-based method” of projecting EPS, because the preferred procedure begins with our revenue projection and develops an expected income statement for 5 years in the future.  From this expected, or projected, income statement, the future EPS is calculated.  The preferred procedure helps us to understand the connection between future sales and future earnings.  The preferred procedure is often used by experienced investors as a second opinion, or a reality check, against which their initial EPS growth projection can be compared.

 

The preferred procedure requires 5 year projections for many of the items we looked at yesterday on the income statement:

1.       Revenues

2.       Pretax profit margin (pretax profit as a percent of sales)

3.       Tax rate

4.       Preferred dividends

5.       Number of shares outstanding

 

For each of the above, a five year projection must be made.  Judgment must be applied to each, based on historical trends, and what we think the company will do in the future. (more on judgment in days 3 and 4).

The Preferred Procedure Calculation - Step by Step

Let’s first take a look at the calculation needed to use the Preferred Procedure.  You will see a lot of similarities between these and the calculations on the income statement.  It’s a step by step procedure that ties our projected revenue to our projected earnings per share (EPS) five years in the future

 

1) Start with the projected revenue

            2) Multiply by projected PTP margin

                = Pretax profit           

3) Less projected taxes

    = Net Income

            4) Less preferred dividends

                = Income available to common shareholders

   

...[Message truncated]

Attachments
Name:   Day2_slides.pdfSize:   352 K
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#8 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 12:36 PM   
Nancy Isaacs
 
From  Nancy Isaacs  Posts 7112  Last Feb-6
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.8 Message 29336.8 replying to 29336.7 29336.7 ]    

Ann,

>>In this hypothetical case, let’s say we have studied the company’s historical performance and what management plans to do in the future (i.e. sell higher margin products and cut expenses further).  We have concluded that pretax profit margin will grow from 20% to 22%.<<

After a while you become attuned to the need for the two main judgments required, i.e. pretax margin and # shares outstanding.

I happen to be a notetaker and for each of my companies I have a paragraph for margins and a paragraph for # shares.

When I read news releases or articles or read messages posted in the forum or on the i-club-list about one of my companies, my attention is drawn to any comments about potential margins or # shares and I add a note.  When I get to the preferred procedure, I access those notes and try to apply the information to my judgment for future shares or margins.  So if ACS announces they are selling off a low margined division of their business or when Biomet announces initiation of a share buyback program, I make a note of it, knowing that I will be referring to that note when it comes time to apply the preferred procedure calculations. 

Once you start listening for this sort of informations, you find clues all over the place.  At least this method helps me.  I know you haven't gotten to judgment yet, but I thought I'd mention this since it occurred to me when you talked about management's plans to cut expenses or sell higher margined products.

Your presentation is excellent so far....very easy to follow.  I know I'll be referring this workshop to forum members time and again in the future.

 

 

Nancy Isaacs

Long term investing made simple
BetterInvesting Community

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#9 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 12:53 PM   
Ann Cuneaz
 
From  Ann Cuneaz  Posts 20  Last 8/11/06
To  Nancy Isaacs      [Msg # 29336.9 Message 29336.9 replying to 29336.8 29336.8 ]    

Nancy,

>>I happen to be a notetaker and for each of my companies I have a paragraph for margins and a paragraph for # shares.

You are much more organized than I am, and I am looking forward to your "following my stocks" workshop <g>.

You are right that you quickly learn what to pay attention to.  When I find a little tidbit, I do a cut and paste to the "Notes" section of Toolkit.  That way my extra information is stored right with my SSG.  I do make sure that I date, and note the source of the item.

And thanks for the kind words (from you and others).  I hope people will find this to be helpful.

Ann

 

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#10 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 1:05 PM   
Nancy Isaacs
 
From  Nancy Isaacs  Posts 7112  Last Feb-6
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.10 Message 29336.10 replying to 29336.9 29336.9 ]    

>>When I find a little tidbit, I do a cut and paste to the "Notes" section of Toolkit.  That way my extra information is stored right with my SSG.  I do make sure that I date, and note the source of the item.<<

That's a good idea, especially for any notes that might be directly applicable to SSG judgments.  I do find that any notes need to be edited on a regular basis, as they get out-of-date or just unweildy before long.

 

Nancy Isaacs

Long term investing made simple
BetterInvesting Community

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#11 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 7:15 PM   
Jim Thomas
 
From  Jim Thomas  Posts 1762  Last Jan-21
To  dianeg      [Msg # 29336.11 Message 29336.11 replying to 29336.6 29336.6 ]    

> The BI Wiki calculator does not appear to handle preferred dividends. <

I added preferred dividends to that calculator.  You might need to refresh your browser cache to get the latest (ctrl+F5 in Internet Explorer).

http://biwiki.editme.com/calcIncomeStatement

-Jim Thomas
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#12 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 7:32 PM   
Lowell Herr
 
From  Lowell Herr  Posts 9662  Last 5:21 AM
To  Jim Thomas      [Msg # 29336.12 Message 29336.12 replying to 29336.11 29336.11 ]    
I added preferred dividends to that calculator.  You might need to refresh your browser cache to get the latest (ctrl+F5 in Internet Explorer).
Jim,

Do you use the "income statement calculator" as a replacement for the PP calculator found within Toolkit?

Lowell
 




 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#13 of 95

     Posted 8/9/05 7:44 PM   
Jim Thomas
 
From  Jim Thomas  Posts 1762  Last Jan-21
To  Lowell Herr      [Msg # 29336.13 Message 29336.13 replying to 29336.12 29336.12 ]    

> Do you use the [Biwiki] "income statement calculator" as a replacement for the PP calculator found within Toolkit? <

No.  That calculator is there because I thought it would be helpful to those reading the BIwiki preferred procedure pages to have access to such a calculator without needing any additional software.  I mentioned it here because I thought some readers might be interested too.

-Jim Thomas
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#14 of 95

     Posted 8/10/05 10:00 AM   
Ann Cuneaz
 
From  Ann Cuneaz  Posts 20  Last 8/11/06
To  All      [Msg # 29336.14 Message 29336.14 replying to 29336.7 29336.7 ]    

Understanding the Preferred Procedure Workshop – Day 3

Now that we have the basics out of the way, we will begin our discussion on guidelines for judgment.  Today we will tackle 2 of the key judgments - future sales growth rates and pretax profit margins.

 

Please see the attached file, Day3_slides.pdf, for pictures that are referred to in the text.  Additionally, we will use the attached Home Depot Value Line report for some of the discussion.

Estimating Future Sales

I make an initial estimate of future sales by reviewing the historical sales growth (of course).  If the past growth has been steady, future growth can be projected with more confidence.  I do pay particular attention to the most recent trends, as this tends to be the most relevant data.  But beyond looking at the graph, I like to do a little more research.

 

Simply stated, price multiplied by quantity equals sales.  So sales can be increased by raising prices and/or selling more products. We want to estimate how sales will grow in the future.  To do this it is imperative that you know and understand the products or the services provided by the company you are studying.  Now I’m not saying that you need to be an expert in the field, but you should be able to give a one or two minute summary on the company’s products and/or services.  You really can’t begin to determine what will drive the future sales growth if you don’t have a basic understanding of the company’s products. 

 

So what can drive or limit future sales growth?  Consider the following:

·         Does everyone that wants the product (or service) have the product (or service)?  If no, then there could be growth ahead.  But if the answer is YES, then this could be a limitation to growth.

·         Is the company branching out to new locations?  A regional company that is expanding to be a national company might be expected to be increasing sales in the future.  But if the company is already national or international, it may be difficult for the company to continue growing sales as they have in the past.  This could be a limit to future growth.

·         Might there be new uses for old products?  Consider Church & Dwight Co., Inc., makers of ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda.  This company has successfully transformed baking soda from being a (small) ingredient in baked goods, to a cleaning agent and a deodorizer.  If you were the manufacturer of baking soda, would you rather have your customer use your product a spoonful at a time, or put whole boxes in the fridge to make it smell good, or better yet, dump entire boxes down the garbage disposal to “freshen”?  I think the answer is fairly obvious.

·         What products are in the pipeline?  New, must-have products are very important to the growth of technology and drug companies, and will often drive future growth.  Future block-buster drugs, or lack thereof, can make or break a pharmaceutical company.  If is for this reason that research and development is an important type of expense for these companies.  Companies that depend on new products must work hard to stay one step ahead of their competition.

·

...[Message truncated]

Attachments
Name:   Day3_slides.pdfSize:   270 K
Name:   HD_VL_09Jan2004.pdfSize:   36 K
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#15 of 95

     Posted 8/10/05 11:57 AM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 724  Last Dec-26
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.15 Message 29336.15 replying to 29336.14 29336.14 ]    

Ann wrote:

Note: It was recently brought to my attention that the Annual Rates box is reporting per share growth rates.  You need to be aware that this is not the same as sales growth rates, and can be affected by the number of shares going up or down. 

>>>>First let me thank you for leading this workshop. So many topics seem complicated, but when broken down into their components are really pretty simple. Hard by the yard, but a cinch by the inch as my uncle used to say.

I believe you see the same thing in either PERT A or its graph.

It has been said the PERT A or its graph show the exact same thing as the SSG with new quarterly data plotted.

By plotting the actual numbers on the front of the SSG you'll get a true picture of the growth occuring for sales and pre tax profit.

I'm glad you confirmed this difference for me.

 

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, BetterInvesting
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#16 of 95

     Posted 8/10/05 5:53 PM   
Nancy Isaacs
 
From  Nancy Isaacs  Posts 7112  Last Feb-6
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.16 Message 29336.16 replying to 29336.14 29336.14 ]    

Ann,

>>So reviewing the historical profit margins, considering my research of how Home Depot is getting more efficient, increased growth in the higher margin home improvement services area, and the recent pretax profit margin quarterly trends, I am estimating the future pretax profit margin to increase to 9.8%, up from the default value of 9.6%. <<

 

Actually your estimate turned out to be a bit conservative.  I see that 2003 and 2004 came in at 10.6% and 10.8%.  Ellis would say you were not accurate but you were right <g>.  I find myself more and more projecting pretax margin at the rate of the current year when the SSG displays a consistently increasing trend unless I have reason to believe the trend will reverse.  I'd need a really good reason to project further margin improvement though.

 

Again your presentation continues to be simply put and easy to follow.  I bet there is a bunch of lurkers out there absorbing your every word.  I just wish some of them would speak up.  If one reader has a question, you can bet a whole bunch of others have the same question and will learn from your response.

 

Nancy Isaacs

Long term investing made simple
BetterInvesting Community

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#17 of 95

     Posted 8/10/05 8:04 PM   
Norm Kaufman
 
From  Norm Kaufman  Posts 483  Last Oct-8
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.17 Message 29336.17 replying to 29336.14 29336.14 ]    
Ann,
  Thank you for your presentation on the Preferred Procedure Workshop.  I am enjoying it.

  You list seven items that can drive or limit sales growth.  I agree that all certainly can be a factor on sales growth.  However, quantifying those seven items on my own is a rather daunting task.  For example, how can I armed only an annual report and maybe a Value Line Report determine how close to saturation a market might be for a product?  Or, even know what products are in a pipeline unless the company puts it in an annual report.  I find that when I am projecting sales growth that I either 1) do a projection from historical data and rachet it down just a little (not a very satisfying approach) or 2) Take Value Line's estimate (and rachet it down a little), or 3) hope there are a lot of clues in the annual report (sometimes there is).

  When you do an SSG, how thoroughly do you go through those seven items you listed when you do a sales projection?  Do you use short cuts?  What are your sources of data?

Norm Kaufman
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#18 of 95

     Posted 8/10/05 8:21 PM   
Nancy Isaacs
 
From  Nancy Isaacs  Posts 7112  Last Feb-6
To  Norm Kaufman      [Msg # 29336.18 Message 29336.18 replying to 29336.17 29336.17 ]    

Norm,

I'm not Ann, but I'll tell you what I do.  As I mentioned before I am a notetaker.  I don't search for the answers to Ann's various items, but I do have a paragraph in my notes for Revenues.  Any time I read an article about the company, or the Morningstar report, or a news release on Yahoo or hear someone on the i-club-list or forum discussion the company, I keep tuned in for clues about revenues.  So if I read something about the pipeline, or about a new or discontinued product, or about pricing pressure, etc.  I jot a note under my paragraph on revenues.  Then, when I am attempting to project sales, I glance at that paragraph for hints.  Short of any specific information in that paragraph, I do the same as you, i.e. rely on VL's estimate on the right and the company's history of revenue growth tempered by column T in the PERT-A.

 

Nancy Isaacs

Long term investing made simple
BetterInvesting Community

 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#19 of 95

     Posted 8/10/05 9:13 PM   
NancyC, Admin
 
From  NancyC, Admin  Posts 10143  Last 6/9/09
To  Norm Kaufman      [Msg # 29336.19 Message 29336.19 replying to 29336.17 29336.17 ]    
Norm, I too look at the things Ann mentioned, but I find it hard to quantify them.  The best I can do is let them guide my thinking.  Looks like things should improve due to a, b, and c or it looks like revenue growth will slacken due to a, b, and c.  It still is just a guide to judgment, nothing scientific by any means.

Nancy Crays
BetterInvesting Community ~ Dog Lovers Community ~ Cat Lovers Community
 
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply

#20 of 95

     Posted 8/11/05 9:16 AM   
NancyC, Admin
 
From  NancyC, Admin  Posts 10143  Last 6/9/09
To  Ann Cuneaz      [Msg # 29336.20 Message 29336.20 replying to 29336.14 29336.14 ]    
PTP margin = Net profit margin ¸ (1 – tax rate)
Ann, I can't see what the symbol after the word "margin" is.  It looks like a comma, but I figure it must be a division symbol.  Is that right?

Your comments on the pretax profit margin being unlikely to increase forever got me thinking.  We are seeing 10 years of data at most.  During the last 10 years, the increasing use of computers has made companies much more efficient and profitable.  There is a limit though to how much more can be squeezed out.

Another way some companies have improved margins is to shift work overseas and/or to outsource work.  There is also a limit to how much of this that they can do.

Thanks for doing this workshop.  It is so well organized and I like your examples.

Nancy Crays
BetterInvesting Community ~ Dog Lovers Community ~ Cat Lovers Community
 
 OptionsReply to this Message Reply
 Subscribe SubscribeCreate Poll Create PollGet a printer-friendly version of this discussion Print Discussion 
BI Newbies

Preferred Procedure Workshop

  
 
     

Welcome, Guest

  • Post a message
  • New messages to you
  • Log in

Start Search
Advanced Search

Prospero Blocks
 
 
 
 
 

Tax Information From

• Taxes
 
 
 
 
Special Offers
 
 
 

Finding People

 
 
 

Cool Clicks!

 
 
 
© 2009 CompuServe Interactive Services, Inc. All rights reserved.

Legal Notices | Privacy Policy