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The Penguin's Den

Is Microsoft Done Yet?

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Doug Yriart (Sysop)
by :   Doug Yriart (Sysop)
4/24/09

votes :   25
Latest :   Oct-12
Q: Is Microsoft Done Yet?



#2 of 19

     Posted 4/24/09 3:35 PM   
Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  All      [Msg # 129297.2 Message 129297.2 replying to 129297.1 129297.1 ]    

With Microsoft reporting earnings for its most recent quarter this week we learn that earnings are down 30% from last year, and that they were less than analysts expected, even taking the economy into account. What happened?

Microsoft blames the most difficult economic conditions the company has ever faced.

Could it be something else?

Computerworld’s "cyber cynic", Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols, argues that other factors are at work. In his post "The fall of Microsoft", Vaughan-Nichols says

I've long thought it funny when Microsoft-fans would tell me how Linux, open-source, the Mac, whatever would never be important because Microsoft products were clearly better. Now, everyone can get on the joke as Microsoft's earnings plummeted in the last quarter by over 30%.

So, is it just the economy, or are other factors at play? Vaughan-Nichols, thinks Microsoft’s management has gotten sloppy and distracted with projects such as pursuing Yahoo! So what? This hasn’t anything to do with us, here in Linuxland. His other ideas are more interesting.

We know that Linux got off to a promising start on netbooks, only to be cut off at the pass by Microsoft, delaying the retirement of Windows XP for the netbook market. Good plan! Maybe not, here’s what Vaughan-Nichols thinks

Another major reason is that Microsoft may own the lion's share of the netbook market now but it did so by cutting its profits to the bone and beyond. Worse still, if you like Microsoft, this new talk of Windows 7 Starter Edition, which is junkware by any standard, being the Windows for netbooks will alienate customers. Microsoft will have a fit trying to hold onto its current netbooks predominance at changes ripple through this market in the rest of 2009.

I sense opportunity for Linux here to bring rich function and a better user experience to future netbook users. How about you?

Or is this all really about hardware? The latest Microsoft anti-Apple ads suggest that Microsoft has forgotten that it’s a software company, and that it doesn’t make hardware. The ads feature hip shoppers picking out their laptops based on hardware features, not software.

The invincible Roman empire eventually fell from old age and rot from within. Is Microsoft the new Rome? Is it’s day passing?

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!


Edited 4/24/09   by  Doug Yriart (Sysop)
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#3 of 19

     Posted 4/24/09 6:54 PM   
RayM
 
From  RayM  Posts 244  Last 5/1/09
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.3 Message 129297.3 replying to 129297.2 129297.2 ]    
I think it's all about the hardware and the fact that new PC sales are way down just like everything else. Microsoft makes its steady income from bundled licenses in new sales and their oxygen has been cut off by the recession. With their OSs being "good enough" since Win2K, there has been no consumer OS upgrade market for them. All that's left is the admittedly huge corporate upgrade market but the F500 doesn't buy new PCs with whatever comes on them at the consumer level. Yes, we pay for Vista and run XP but we also aren't upgrading the base PCs either because why the heck does the average office worker need anything better than what was mainstream hardware five years ago?

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#4 of 19

     Posted 4/24/09 7:09 PM   
Frank B. (Forum Janitor)
 
From  Frank B. (Forum Janitor)  Posts 4682  Last 10:06 AM
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.4 Message 129297.4 replying to 129297.2 129297.2 ]    
Doug:

Perhaps there should have been an 'all of the above' at the end of that list.  :)

A lot of factors go toward this decline.  The author's final remarks may be most pertinent.  There is a natural rise and fall in everything -- governments, companies, technologies, music groups, and so on.  You can only stay on top so long.

I am rather enthused about how Linux will benefit if MS goes and sells a crippled Win7 Starter edition.  I don't hate MS.  They have produced some excellent software over the years.  I do disapprove strongly of their cutthroat business practices.  I don't want to see them disappear, but taking them down a peg or two will benefit the industry as whole IMHO.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.
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#5 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 12:43 AM   
Judy M.
 
From  Judy M.  Posts 2775  Last 8:42 PM
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.5 Message 129297.5 replying to 129297.2 129297.2 ]    

>> The ads feature hip shoppers picking out their laptops based on hardware features, not software. >>

Wrong. The ads aren't about hardware, they're about PC vs. Mac. The laptops in the ads are running Windows. The shoppers get what they want for a lower price than the Mac laptops running Mac OS. That's true now, always has been, probably always will be. That's also the point of the ads.

I think it's the economy. Just about all companies are down. That includes the sale of Mac computers. Apple is doing better because of the iPod and iPhone, not Macintosh computers.

>> I sense opportunity for Linux here to bring rich function and a better user experience to future netbook users. How about you? >>

Linux already had that opportunity when netbooks came out. But as soon as Windows was available for netbooks, Linux on netbooks went into a rapid decline. Why? People want what they know, what will run the programs they might install. It doesn't matter if Linux is "better." As long as Windows is "good enough," people will stick with it.

I wonder why Vaugan-Nichols decided Win 7 Starter Edition is "junkware." I assume it's because it'll have a limit of 3 applications running at a time, at least as expected at this time. (By the way, that does not include antimalware applications running in the background.) If a netbook is being used for what netbooks are good at (Web, e-mail, low-demand multimedia), you don't need much more than a browser running (one application--you have two left). If you want to run Word and Excel and Photoshop and PowerPoint AND your browser and standalone media player, Starter Edition is not for you. Depending on how much Microsoft charges for an upgrade from Starter Edition, a netbook user who finds that Starter is insufficient may not mind spending the extra.

I think some netbook buyers are just looking for a cheap laptop and don't realize what they're getting in a netbook. It'll be interesting to see if these buyers get a netbook again when they have to replace the first one. I know I certainly wouldn't want to use a netbook as a laptop substitute, especially since you can buy an adequate laptop for under $500. I also notice that netbooks are getting bigger and bigger for larger screens and keyboards, are coming with hard drives, and are costing more as a result. At what point are they no longer a netbook?
--Judy M.

----------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #397786
Being productive with VectorLinux 6.0 Standard, Deluxe Edition

Edited 4/25/09   by  Judy M.
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#6 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 2:00 AM   
chuckcmagee
 
From  chuckcmagee  Posts 537  Last Oct-21
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.6 Message 129297.6 replying to 129297.1 129297.1 ]    
I am sure y'all have already read my posts about I am ready to fork out bucks for Win7.  So, as noted, people here lately are thinking "You know, I can't eat a new laptop! Maybe I will wait and see if I get another job before buying a new computer."  Yep, sales are down. 

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#7 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 2:04 AM   
chuckcmagee
 
From  chuckcmagee  Posts 537  Last Oct-21
To  All      [Msg # 129297.7 Message 129297.7 replying to 129297.6 129297.6 ]    
Crud, I voted Rules. I should have voted Stupid instead!

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#8 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 5:50 AM   
Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  Judy M.      [Msg # 129297.8 Message 129297.8 replying to 129297.5 129297.5 ]    
Judy,

>> Wrong. The ads aren't about hardware, they're about PC vs. Mac. The laptops in the ads are running Windows. The shoppers get what they want for a lower price than the Mac laptops running Mac OS. <<

Listen carefully to the ads... you're right that they are about PC vs. Mac, however, the second one, with the guy, never mentions Windows at all, the first one, barely mentions Windows. They never mention OS X (Mac OS). The deals are closed on hardware features... it's like saying, I'll buy a Chevy instead of a BMW, because they're both cars, without considering what makes a Chevy different from a BMW.

>> I think it's the economy. Just about all companies are down. That includes the sale of Mac computers. Apple is doing better because of the iPod and iPhone, not Macintosh computers. <<

In the $1000 and up laptop and desktop market Apple is doing way better than the Windows hardware vendors. Their profit margins on these computers are higher, their sale volume has fallen less than the competition.

I think you're a populist <g> who won't admit that for many people the added value of engineering, and, yes style, does have value and they're willing to pay for it even in tough economic times. Apple has lowered prices on their desktops recently... in the way that they always do, by increasing the performance for each price point.

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!

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#9 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 5:52 AM   
Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  chuckcmagee      [Msg # 129297.9 Message 129297.9 replying to 129297.7 129297.7 ]    
Chuck,

>> I voted Rules. I should have voted Stupid instead! <<

In our polls you can always go back and change your vote. :-)

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!

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#10 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 11:25 AM   
Frank B. (Forum Janitor)
 
From  Frank B. (Forum Janitor)  Posts 4682  Last 10:06 AM
To  Judy M.      [Msg # 129297.10 Message 129297.10 replying to 129297.5 129297.5 ]    
Judy:

>Depending on how much Microsoft charges for an upgrade from Starter Edition, a netbook user who finds that Starter is insufficient may not mind spending the extra.<

This amounts to a sneaky 'tax' on the unsophisticated user making it appear that Windows netbooks are price competitive with Linux.  I see a potential backfire here.  People don't like hidden charges.

>I think some netbook buyers are just looking for a cheap laptop and don't realize what they're getting in a netbook.<

Or, more accurately, what they're not getting.

>I also notice that netbooks are getting bigger and bigger for larger screens and keyboards, are coming with hard drives, and are costing more as a result. At what point are they no longer a netbook?<

Yes, the lines are getting more and more blurred as these little machines become more and more capable.  Don't forget, however, the new line of mini netbooks using ARM processors.  That is movement in the other direction.  I suspect that no one really knows where the market is at the moment.  Asus hit it by accident and started this whole 'free for all'.

Frank.

-----------------------
Single booting Linux all day, every day, at home and at work.
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#11 of 19

     Posted 4/25/09 1:06 PM   
Bill Dandreta
 
From  Bill Dandreta  Posts 2326  Last Jul-6
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.11 Message 129297.11 replying to 129297.2 129297.2 ]    
MS is not 'done'.

The problem is that once a company gets big enough and their products have saturated the market, their growth tends to mimic overall economic growth.

This is the 1st global recession since WWII. Until now, MS always had a place to 'hide' because gains in one part of the world would partially offset losses in another and their market was not yet saturated.

This time it is different. The following quote is from an article I read this morning.

"The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's (OECD) latest report on world leading economic indicators shows that the growth cycle experienced another consecutive downtick. That's the twenty-first consecutive month that leading economic indicators for world economies have declined..."

The US is in its 19th month of recession/depression (recessions have typically lasted 6-18 months) and the economy is still accelerating downward. In fact a case can be made that this is a double dip recession that began in 2000.

During recessions, companies become 'lean and mean' to survive.

In the 1990's recession, Apple had growth problems and was in danger of going out of business. They diversified their products and are better able to withstand economic down turns now. Apple's customer base is just now starting to get hit hard by the economic crisis. How they react over the next year or 2 will tell how badly they get hurt.

"Flexibility is the price of survival."


Bill
To err is human, to blame someone else shows management potential.
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#12 of 19

     Posted 4/26/09 12:24 AM   
Judy M.
 
From  Judy M.  Posts 2775  Last 8:42 PM
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.12 Message 129297.12 replying to 129297.8 129297.8 ]    

I think people who will pay several hundred dollars (or more) extra for "style" are nuts. They can spend their money as they see fit, but that doesn't mean I have to think they're not nuts.<g>

Engineering? First they have to have the money. Many people don't. So being able to pay a premium for "engineering" is not a buying option for large numbers of people. Second, the premium has to be worth it for what is supposed to be superior engineering. Given that I've never had problems with "poorly engineered" computers in 22 years of use, I can't see that the premium for Apple engineering could possibly be worth the extra money it would cost me (even if I had it).

For a lot of people, conspicuous consumption rules. Idiots.

>>  the second one, with the guy, never mentions Windows at all, the first one, barely mentions Windows. They never mention OS X (Mac OS). >>

It doesn't matter. To most people, "PC" implies Windows. "Mac" means a Mac and therefore, not Windows. (Never mind that you can run Windows on a Mac.) The ads don't *have to* mention Windows or OS X. Those OSes are implied for PC or Mac. They're not arguing that Windows is better than OS X. They're saying that contrary to what "Mac vs. PC" suggests, you CAN do everything you want on a PC (meaning Windows). And you'll pay less.

>>  it's like saying, I'll buy a Chevy instead of a BMW, because they're both cars, without considering what makes a Chevy different from a BMW. >>

Oh no. Now we're back at that "spend more for what is perceived as better." It's not like that in the real world. A BMW is priced out of sight for most people no matter if it was made by God himself. Your choices are circumscribed by how much you can afford to spend and if you can, whether you choose to spend the extra on the car or on something else, like your kid's college fund or your mother's nursing home. 
--Judy M.

----------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #397786
Being productive with VectorLinux 6.0 Standard, Deluxe Edition
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#13 of 19

     Posted 4/27/09 12:49 AM   
Kayza Kleinman
 
From  Kayza Kleinman  Posts 728  Last Jul-5
To  Judy M.      [Msg # 129297.13 Message 129297.13 replying to 129297.12 129297.12 ]    
While it's true that for many people price is the determining factor in a purchase decision, a very large percentage of the people I know do have some leeway in how much they spend on a computer. They are not likely to spend more on "cool", but value - perceived or real, is another story. Good engineering and design really can add value, especially in a business setting. I work for a non-profit, and budgets are always tight, so I have to think twice before spending. I have found that paying for good design pays off. I've dealt with a few hundred PCs over the course of the years - and the 7 "cheap" computers gave me more grief than the hundreds of business class machines altogether. The issues seemed small, until you had to deal with the real world effects. For instance, case design. A well designed case is easy to open, and is essentially tool free. A decent case may require tools, but is still straightforward to open. The consumer cases? Awful stuff. The worst was one that an extra faceplate that was extremely difficult to open. The faceplate was necessary for the on / off switch to work, so you had to be very careful not to break it, but the way it was installed made it highly likely to break it unless you were careful, reasonably good with your hands, and lucky. And, the instructions were totally useless. Or the decision to put the CD and IDE HD on the same cable - in the days when doing that was going to cut your HD speed noticeably.

User interface also really does make a difference. I'll never forget when I upgraded one application and, among other things it went from pur B&W to moderate color. People found it far easier to use. I see how people react to different programs with similar functgionality. Sometimes it's a matter of familiarity, but sometimes, it really makes life easier.

Value that is more that the sum of "feeds and speeds" does exist, and even in a bad economy some people are willing to pay for that.



-- Kayza
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#14 of 19

     Posted 4/27/09 1:08 AM   
Judy M.
 
From  Judy M.  Posts 2775  Last 8:42 PM
To  Kayza Kleinman      [Msg # 129297.14 Message 129297.14 replying to 129297.13 129297.13 ]    

When I was talking about design, I had "pretty" or "cool" in mind. Your examples are another matter.

I agree very strongly that a well-designed case is important. Some cases are not only flimsy or hard to work in, they're downright dangerous if they have sharp edges that can give you a nasty cut.

Program design and interface are important, too. I don't think that a more expensive program will necessarily have a better interface.
--Judy M.

----------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #397786
Being productive with VectorLinux 6.0 Standard, Deluxe Edition
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#15 of 19

     Posted 4/27/09 5:45 AM   
Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  Kayza Kleinman      [Msg # 129297.15 Message 129297.15 replying to 129297.13 129297.13 ]    
Kayza,

>> Good engineering and design really can add value, especially in a business setting. <<

Exactly my point. :-)

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!

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#16 of 19

     Posted 4/27/09 5:48 AM   
Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  Judy M.      [Msg # 129297.16 Message 129297.16 replying to 129297.14 129297.14 ]    
Judy,

>> When I was talking about design, I had "pretty" or "cool" in mind. Your examples are another matter. <<

Funny, every time I mention real engineering and design you've rejected it as adding value. You seem to be so obsessed with Apple being "pretty or cool" that you miss the fact that Apple is an engineering company, and there is real quality in both the hardware engineering -- wins Consumer Reports top rating for customer satisfaction every year; and the software engineering of both OS X and Apple's applications.

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!

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#17 of 19

     Posted 4/28/09 12:06 AM   
Judy M.
 
From  Judy M.  Posts 2775  Last 8:42 PM
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.17 Message 129297.17 replying to 129297.16 129297.16 ]    

I know Apple gets good marks for quality. However, that doesn't mean that anything other than Apple is poor quality or badly engineered. Apple would like you to think so, but it's false. 

I also know that Apple gets good ratings for customer satisfaction. I do wonder, though, how much the ratings would fall if you eliminated the cultists from the survey population.

Re my previous comments on the "lies" in the "PC vs. Mac Guy," I thought of one thing that had me screaming at the TV. The Mac ads make it sound like all you can do with a PC is dull business stuff, whereas a Mac lets you do fun, creative things. Baloney! You can be just as creative with a PC (whether Windows or Linux).
--Judy M.

----------------------------------------
Registered Linux User #397786
Being productive with VectorLinux 6.0 Standard, Deluxe Edition
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#18 of 19

     Posted Aug-12 4:18 AM   
Tim Bourne
 
From  Tim Bourne  Posts 100  Last Nov-20
To  Doug Yriart (Sysop)      [Msg # 129297.18 Message 129297.18 replying to 129297.1 129297.1 ]    (Unread)
I had to vote for "Microsoft rules" -  not because I run Windows myself from choice, but because 99% of my customers do. I produce software products to sell, so I have to cater for the market that exists. For myself, I run Linux, with a Windows XP VM for development and testing, and the option of a dual boot into Vista on one machine.

Best wishes,
Tim Bourne.

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#19 of 19

     Posted Aug-12 8:44 AM   
Mike Hughes (Sysop)
 
From  Mike Hughes (Sysop)  Posts 370  Last 5:46 AM
To  Tim Bourne      [Msg # 129297.19 Message 129297.19 replying to 129297.18 129297.18 ]    
Tim

I also use an XP Pro VM under VMware to support professional clients who use Windows.  VMware has a lot of features specifically for cross-platform software development and this works very well for me.  I have been using it less and less, however.  Most of my professional work is now in Linux as well.  I no longer use any Windows software for myself.

Mike

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