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Linux Distributions

Setting up Linux multiboot system

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#1 of 97

     Posted 2/6/07 10:55 PM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  All      [Msg # 127752.1 ]    

I guess that to an extent I am trying to run before I even grow feet but hey, that is what I call a challenge.

I am in the prep stages of building a MythTV / home server system and in phase 2 of my learning curve, I would like to install several different distros so I can get ... acquainted with Linux.
I have installed KnoppMyth but being a MythTV specific distro it really hides a lot of the basics, that I should get to know and it pretty much forces a "clean" install. Well, perhaps if you use expert mode it is different but I ain't no expert :-)
But also, I think I will be starting a job soon where Linux is in use. It is not something I "need" to know but being somewhat of a geek, I want to know. So...

I have downloaded a few distros:
OpenSuse
Fedora LiveCD
Ubunto
Mephis
KnoppMyth
And I plan to pull down MythDora but that has to wait till I get a DVD writer. And what I have is more than enough for the moment.

I have installed some removable trays in my PC and I have 2 spare drives I could use for practice Linux installs, a 30GB and a 40GB.
Actually, I would like to just use one to start but I presume either would be big enough for at least 3  of the above distros.
I also have another fixed drive I can use for data, video, swap... whatever

So, What I am looking for is a good website or just some good directions on how to plan and execute such a multiboot operation.
Mind you, I am a serious Linux Newbie and a just as serious Windows/DOS old hand, the latter being possible part handicap but I am running a multiboot Win/DOS system with 6 OSs so at least have a little bit of a clue?

Oh, two more things... File systems.
I have seen a lot of suggestions but JFS seems to be the #1 for MythTV and large files followed by ext3. Any thoughts there?

And Checksums again...
Most, if not all of the distros seem to have a disk check built in. Is that as good as running a separate check?

Thoughts

Thanks, DP

Edited 2/6/07   by  Daine
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#2 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 12:01 AM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  All      [Msg # 127752.2 Message 127752.2 replying to 127752.1 127752.1 ]    

OK, well I guess I have at least part of the answer, the multiboot gets taken care of during the subsequent installs?

I had installed Knoppmyth on this drive and am now installing Ubunto.
The Ubunto installer came up with questions about partitions and such. I answered as best I knew how but was really not sure what it meant with "one of the partitions must be root */*. I tried naming the new partition and it did not like that so I just left it with the slash which I guess was the right answer as it let me continue.

And some time later I saw the message, "configuring the GRUB boot loader"... Good sign...

And... I'm darn impressed :-)
I restarted and got a boot menu.
Mind you the selection title for the Knoppmyth install was very generic but it seems to work and now I rebooted and am in Ubunto...

So a completely different question... How about a good, condensed source where I can learn some of the more important but basic inner workings and command line procedures of Linux?

More to come...

DP

 

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#3 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 5:29 AM   		Mike Hughes (sysop)
 
From  Mike Hughes (sysop)  Posts 3919  Last Jun-4
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.3 Message 127752.3 replying to 127752.1 127752.1 ]    
Daine

First, while you can install multiple Linux distributions simultaneously, you can run into trouble with this and I think it is better to look at them one at a time until you decide which one you want to use.  In most cases, you can install a new one and the installation program will give you the option of  erasing or preserving any existing Linux installations.

All of the more sophisticated distributions will handle a dual-boot setup automatically.  Most will also install to a second disk automatically if the first disk is already fully partitioned by Windows.  With the "big gun" distributions such as SuSE and Fedora, you do not really have to do anything.  Just accept the defaults and they will give you a working system.  They all give you the option of taking control of the disk partitioning process if you want to and this may be necessary if you are installing a complicated system such as more than two operating systems or a Windows system with multiple partitions.  The more primitive distributions are much less automatic and require you to set up the disk partitions using a utility of some kind.

If I am not mistaken the Fedora "Live CD" (which is not produced by Fedora.org) is a demo and not something intended for installation to your system.  If you want to install to your hard drive, you need the full set of 5 CD's or one DVD.  If you don't want to download, you can get them pre-burned for a few bucks from sources such as CheapBytes.  Fedora 7 will come out on a single CD and will download anything else you want to install from online repositories, either during the installation or after you have the initial installation completed.  This is great so long as you have a broadband connection. Fedora is going more and more towards being a distribution for sophisticated and well-equipped users.  It is not a good choice for use on older computers.

The media tests built into Fedora and other distributions are better than simple checksums; they make sure that the disks actually contain what they are supposed to have on them.

Mike

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#4 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 8:58 AM   		TerryXela
 
From  TerryXela  Posts 1983  Last 12:12 PM
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.4 Message 127752.4 replying to 127752.1 127752.1 ]    
Daine,

1. If you do want to go to a psychiatrist for help basically do what Mike said: just choose one distro get familiar and install myth.

2. Some of the distros that have been put together for myth had a very specific goal: to use as the bases of a playcenter. They have not been put together to use as a more general OS. Of course the core is there but it will be a little harder for you.

3. Get the correct hardware. You need a basic analog card. My preference is for the wintTV-pvr 350 because of the hardware encoding - decoding (ext monitor). There is a new one 500 with two tuners. Later you can add HDTV. I've just got the pcHDTCV but I have not installed yet. This cards had also an analog chip but the Hauppage are the hard to beat in this area. There are other choices of course and a zillion of opinions.

4. Get the basic tv module working. You can use mplayer as a tv application. Then install mythtv.

5. If you want to try different distros use virtualization instead of multiboot. It will decreases the cost as described in #1 <g>

Ciao




-=terry(Denver)=-
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#5 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 9:02 AM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  Mike Hughes (sysop)      [Msg # 127752.5 Message 127752.5 replying to 127752.3 127752.3 ]    
<<First, while you can install multiple Linux distributions simultaneously, you can run into trouble with this and I think it is better to look at them one at a time until you decide which one you want to use.  In most cases, you can install a new one and the installation program will give you the option of  erasing or preserving any existing Linux installations. >>
       Those two sentences seem a bit contrary to each other but my feeling is that by using the removable trays, I can easily and safely play with several Linux installs while keeping my daily windows drives off line and more to the point, none of these Linux installs are ever going live.
I will be building/buying a new system to use as the home server. When that happens I will want just one or perhaps two distros and some sort of Windows access but till then it is all playing, breaking, fixing and learning.

<<All of the more sophisticated distributions will handle a dual-boot setup automatically.>>
       That certainly was the case with installing Ubuntu over Knoppmyth.
I have not looked yet but how do I get into the GRUB loader to change titles?

<<They all give you the option of taking control of the disk partitioning process if you want to and this may be necessary if you are installing a complicated system>>
       When I installed ubuntu I was forced to make some decisions on partitions because Knoppmyth was already there. It all went fine but I do have some questions.
I guess Linux requires a minimum of 3 partitions, install, swap and data,
I get the idea that multiple installs can share one swap partition?
I was a bit confused with the partition naming... the ones created by the knoppmyth install were /dev/hda, /dev/hdb and /dev/hdc as I recall, with hdb being the swap.
hdc was the largest and I presume the "data" partition so I made it smaller and added a new one for Ubuntu but I could not name the install partition for Ubuntu /dev/hdd. After a few different names I came to the conclusion that the partition program wanted me to just leave it as /

<<If I am not mistaken the Fedora "Live CD" (which is not produced by Fedora.org) is a demo and not something intended for installation to your system.  If you want to install to your hard drive, you need the full set of 5 CD's>>
       I have not done anything with it yet but I guess there is a good reason for calling it a "Live CD"... I will look again for the full release.

<<If you don't want to download, you can get them pre-burned>>
       I have a good cable connection and a stack of 50 cds ($6.99, not too bad) so I have some latitude for burning. Still need that DVD though. All the disc swapping does get old, kind of like big floppies.

<<The media tests built into Fedora and other distributions are better than simple checksums; they make sure that the disks actually contain what they are supposed to have on them.>>
       OK, so using a standalone Md5 program is kind of redundant?

DP
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#6 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 9:36 AM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  TerryXela      [Msg # 127752.6 Message 127752.6 replying to 127752.4 127752.4 ]    
<<1. If you do want to go to a psychiatrist for help basically do what Mike said: just choose one distro get familiar and install myth.>>
       I guess you mean "If I don't want to go to a psychiatrist" :-)
Actually, I sort of decided to put off myth for a little bit, days/weeks or so, so I can get a more basic understanding of Linux and have a look at some of the basic distros.
This, partly because I like to understand what's happening behind the scenes, thereby improving my ability to manage what I really want to do and because of my new prospective job.
Being as Linux (likely command line activities) is used with the products it seemed logical to learn a bit.

<< Some of the distros that have been put together for myth had a very specific goal: to use as the bases of a playcenter. They have not been put together to use as a more general OS. Of course the core is there but it will be a little harder for you.>>
       That was my immediate impression from installing Knoppmyth. It was very easy, albeit I don't have the tuner installed yet so can't say if it works but installing, once I gave up on my old PC, was a breeze.
That said, the home server will also be a general use system, e-mail, internet, word processing so it seems logical to decide now what I want to run.

<<My preference is for the wintTV-pvr 350>>
       On a whim I bought a wintTV-pvr 150 but I have not taken it out of the box as I realized at the time that it was sort of an impulse buy. Although in browsing the net it did seemed to be the most happily supported.
The 150 also has hardware encode but the advantage with the 350 if I read correctly, is hardware decode and FM and it is not that much more $$.
The question is, should I return the 150 and get a 350 or 500 or should I simply get a 350 later as I am sure that in the end, my system will need 2 tuners.
Of course, HD will eventually happen in this house as well but I would say it is at least a year out.

<< If you want to try different distros use virtualization instead of multiboot.>>
       Virtualization... This is where I pretend to have a second install :-)
I get the idea.. that you run one distro from within a second but how does one set that up? Simply start one and then install the 2nd as an app in the first?

And down to brass tacks.
I suppose that in the end it is sort of apples and apples in that no matter which distro you install, you can always add/remove apps to your liking but there are differences so...
You mentioned that you use Suse as your base install. Why Suse and not another?
In a nut shell, what is the real difference 'for the user' between the different disros and window managers.
Can you suggest one of the 10 zillion sites I can refer to with an objective overview of the advantages & differences between various distros and window managers?

<<It will decreases the cost as described in #1 <g> >>
       Correct me if I am wrong but I think the psych bills will only start accruing if I jump right in and try to build a live system without learning some first. Until I go live, I can just reformat and start over if I want.

DP
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#7 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 9:37 AM   		Frank B. (Forum Janitor)
 
From  Frank B. (Forum Janitor)  Posts 4682  Last 10:06 AM
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.7 Message 127752.7 replying to 127752.5 127752.5 ]    
Daine:

As Terry has suggested, stick to one distro at a time.  While you CAN put several on the same hard drive, you just create problems for yourself that are not specifically Linux-related.  Yes, you want to learn Linux, but no, you don't need to learn the problems of multiboot.  It is just learning how to do something that you won't really need to do, as eventually you likely won't run several distros at the same time anyway.

As Doug often says, "Linux is Linux is Linux."  All the distros use the same basic components.  They just package certain products together to fit a specific target audience, and make sure they work well together.

To learn Linux, pick a mainstream distro that has a good support community, and play with that until you are familiar with it.  They break down into two major camps:  Those using the RPM package management (SuSE, Red Hat, etc.), and those that use the Debian-based package management (Debian, Ubuntu, Mepis etc.).  Both have their strengths.

I have several hard drive trays as well.  I have my day-to-day install of Xandros 3 that I use for real work (single boot as I don't use Windows anymore), and several others with 'testbed' installs of SuSE 10.1, Ubuntu 6.06, and Xandros 4.  The machine I use for testing has a second physical fixed hard drive that contains my data.  That way, no matter what OS I have booted, all my data is available on the machine.

Something else I have tried is buying a whole second (or third, or fourth) machine from the computer recycler, and then putting them on the network together.  Saves time booting at the expense of less desk space in my office.  Used machines with monitors and hardware that is still current can be had for the $300 to $500 range (Canadian).

Frank.
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#8 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 10:23 AM   		Bill Dandreta
 
From  Bill Dandreta  Posts 2326  Last Jul-6
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.8 Message 127752.8 replying to 127752.6 127752.6 ]    
>>I was a bit confused with the partition naming... the ones created by the knoppmyth install were /dev/hda, /dev/hdb and /dev/hdc as I recall<<

/dev/hda, /dev/hdb, /dev/hdc and /dev/hdd are not partitions, they are the names of your 4 ide drives. hda is ide0 master, hdb is ide0 slave, hdc is ide1 master and hdd is ide1 slave. partions are named like this

/dev/hda1, /dev/hda2, etc.

>>I have not looked yet but how do I get into the GRUB loader to change titles?<<

look in

/boot/grub

The config file is named grub.conf or menu.lst.

>>In a nut shell, what is the real difference 'for the user' between the different disros and window managers.<<

Once installed and configured, there is not a great difference for users.

>>Can you suggest one of the 10 zillion sites I can refer to with an objective overview of the advantages & differences between various distros and window managers?<<

Documentation:

http://tldp.org/
http://desktoplinux.com/
http://www.kegel.com/linux/training.html
http://linux-newbie.sunsite.dk/index.html
http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
http://dsl.org/cookbook/cookbook_toc.html

Look in /usr/doc and /usr/share/doc for documentation on programs installed on your system

Use the man pages for info on command line programs.

Distrowatch.com has over 300 distro listed with descriptions.

Bill
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#9 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 10:51 AM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  Frank B. (Forum Janitor)      [Msg # 127752.9 Message 127752.9 replying to 127752.7 127752.7 ]    
<<Yes, you want to learn Linux, but no, you don't need to learn the problems of multiboot.  It is just learning how to do something that you won't really need to do, as eventually you likely won't run several distros at the same time anyway.>>
       OK, point taken... So now I just need to decide which distro.

<<They break down into two major camps:  Those using the RPM package management ...SNIP... and those that use the Debian-based package management >>
       Interesting that the two MythTV distros I looked at, mythdora and knoppmyth also use both, respectively.

<<The machine I use for testing has a second physical fixed hard drive that contains my data.  That way, no matter what OS I have booted, all my data is available on the machine.>>
       I can do that as well but I pulled my personal data tray while installing so I didn't make any... ahem, mistakes :-)

<<Something else I have tried is buying a whole second (or third, or fourth) machine from the computer recycler>>
       Yea, thought about that but really, I could just put a new MB in the other PC and have the same but new.
Lets see how this goes first. I can always do the net or check mail on the old machine while playing with Linux on the new one.

DP
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#10 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 11:19 AM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  Bill Dandreta      [Msg # 127752.10 Message 127752.10 replying to 127752.8 127752.8 ]    
<</dev/hda, /dev/hdb, /dev/hdc and /dev/hdd are not partitions, they are the names of your 4 ide drives.>>
       Like I said, I was confused :-) I don't even have 4 drives in the system...

<<partions are named like this /dev/hda1, /dev/hda2, etc.>>
       OK, still the question of my naming the partition, I guess it was /dev/hda3 or /dev/hda4 and why it would only take /. That said, I have been convinced that multiboot is not really necessary for me so on to choosing a distro.

<<look in /boot/grub  The config file is named grub.conf or menu.lst.>>
       The closest I have is config-2.6.15-26-386 but looking inside, the first thing I see is "don't edit".  Mind you, it is a pretty large file.
Anyway, I'm not going to worry about this for the moment.

I will check some of the other sites you listed to gather some ideas on distros.

<<Use the man pages for info on command line programs.>>
What do you mean?

DP
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#11 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 11:32 AM   		Mike Hughes (sysop)
 
From  Mike Hughes (sysop)  Posts 3919  Last Jun-4
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.11 Message 127752.11 replying to 127752.5 127752.5 ]    
Daine

I need to write a book on some of those questions but I will try to cover the basics shortly!

I was referring to the situation in which you have a boot menu with more than one Linux distribution on it, as opposed to installing only one distribution, looking at it for a while and then deleting it and installing a different one.  Having multiple distributions installed at once is possible but it is tricky and everything has to be set up just right.  By the time you get it working, you could probably have reviewed all of them one at a time and made your decision.  There is relatively little real difference between them once they are installed.  They differ in the way the installation program works, the specific "products" installed by default (you can install anything you want once the system is running)  and the "themes" used to create specific decorative effects (you can install any themes you want once the system is running).  As bill noted, you can also run multiple distributions using virtualization but that is complicated as well.  Putting the distributions on removable drives simplifies some things but there can be problems with getting the bootloader to work properly.

> I have not looked yet but how do I get into the GRUB loader to change titles?

Edit the file "/boot/grub/grub.conf" with a text editor.  The entries look something like this:

title Fedora Core (2.6.18-1.2869.fc6)
    root (hd0,1)
    kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.18-1.2869.fc6 ro root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol00 rhgb quiet
    initrd /initrd-2.6.18-1.2869.fc6.img
title Windows 98SE
    rootnoverify (hd0,0)
    chainloader +1

Change the "title" line to say anything you want.  If there is a line in there that says, "hiddenmenu", delete it. 

> I guess Linux requires a minimum of 3 partitions, install, swap and data,..

It varies with the distribution and the setup.  The most basic requires two partitions, data ("/") and swap (virtual memory).  The swap partition is not formatted; it is treated as raw bytes of memory. Older computers may require a separate partition for the "/boot" directory to get around limitations in the BIOS.  Some distributions put "/home" in a separate partition.  It is possible to put everything in one partition using logical volume management (LVM) which Fedora now does by default.  Unfortunately, GRUB does not yet work with LVM so you still need the separate non-LVM "/boot" partition to contain the files GRUB uses to start the system.  Once GRUB catches up with LVM, only the one LVM partition will be needed.  LVM allows the partition to be divided up into "volumes" and these can be resized on the fly if needed.  There are also performance advantages to LVM.

> I get the idea that multiple installs can share one swap partition?

Yes but it probably won't go that way by default; you will have to force it.

> I was a bit confused with the partition naming...

The "/dev" files are really hardware addresses, not partition names.  "/dev/hda" is the "master" drive on the first IDE controller.  "/dev/hdb" is the "slave" drive.  "/dev/hdc" is the "master" on the second IDE controller, etc.  Add a digit to this to identify the partition: "/dev/hda1" is the first partition on the master of the first IDE controller.  It is treating each partition somewhat as if it was a separate disk drive.  SCSI drives are addressed as "/dev/sda", "/dev/sdb", etc.  I think SATA drives are treated as SCSI and so are most disk-like USB devices.

Note that Linux has nothing like "drive letters".  From the user's viewpoint, the file system is a single unified directory tree descending from "/".  You can't even tell what files are on what physical drive unless you know how the system is configured.  When you "mount" a removable device, its files simply appear in a specific directory.

> OK, so using a standalone Md5 program is kind of redundant?

If the distribution has a built in media check.  Not all of them do.

Mike

Edited 2/7/07   by  Mike Hughes (sysop)
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#12 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 12:51 PM   		Daine
 
From  Daine  Posts 192  Last 8/27/07
To  Mike Hughes (sysop)      [Msg # 127752.12 Message 127752.12 replying to 127752.11 127752.11 ]    
<<I need to write a book on some of those questions>>
       Well blyme man, get crackin :-)

<<I was referring to the situation in which you have a boot menu with more than one Linux distribution on it, as opposed to installing only one distribution, looking at it for a while and then deleting it and installing a different one.  Having multiple distributions installed at once is possible but it is tricky>>
       Yea, I got that and while it may be at times tricky, installing Ubuntu after Knoppmyth was a breeze and AFAICT they are sharing the same swap.
But still, I got the point and we will see where it goes. The bottom line is indeed that I simply want to persue a few distros to make the choice but as it was so easy to this point,  I will try and install another on top if this just for kicks, perhaps SUSE.
If it all fails then I start over, no big deal.

<<There is relatively little real difference between them once they are installed. >>
       That is important.
What about performance?
And does installing extra stuff have the same impact as with windows, clogging, sluggishness etc?

<<Edit the file "/boot/grub/grub.conf" with a text editor. >>
    Well, I don't see grub.conf but looking under file system I see /boot/grub and I found menu.lst which seems to be the beast.
But I don't have permission to edit it.

<<Note that Linux has nothing like "drive letters".  From the user's viewpoint, the file system is a single unified directory tree descending from "/".  You can't even tell what files are on what physical drive unless you know how the system is configured.>>
       That I remember from the Mac but I must confess that I like to know what physical location a file lives in.

DP
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#13 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 1:58 PM   		Bill Dandreta
 
From  Bill Dandreta  Posts 2326  Last Jul-6
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.13 Message 127752.13 replying to 127752.12 127752.12 ]    
>>OK, still the question of my naming the partition, I guess it was /dev/hda3 or /dev/hda4 and why it would only take /. That said, I have been convinced that multiboot is not really necessary for me so on to choosing a distro.<<

/ is a directory and is the root file system.

Look in /etc/fstab. It will tell you which partitions are automatically mount on which directories.

You can manually mount using the mount command (as root).

man mount

Will give you the man page for mount.

If you want to look at your hd partitions, use cfdisk

cfdisk -Ps /dev/hda

will print the partition table for /dev/hda

for more details see

man cfdisk

>>The closest I have is config-2.6.15-26-386<<

That's the kernel configuration file.

>>What about performance?<<

Performance (even in Windows) is not about what programs are installed it is about what programs are simultaneously running.

There are significant performance differences between the distros. The 'easy to use' distros load many daemons at startup so any service you might need is available. With these distros, you could have as many as 50 to 100 programs running before you do anything. Other distros (Slackware comes to mind) only start the minimum services needed to have a usable system. If you want other services, you have to start them yourself.

Bill
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#14 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 2:20 PM   		Frank B. (Forum Janitor)
 
From  Frank B. (Forum Janitor)  Posts 4682  Last 10:06 AM
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.14 Message 127752.14 replying to 127752.9 127752.9 ]    
Daine:

>I can do that as well but I pulled my personal data tray while installing so I didn't make any... ahem, mistakes :-)  <

A wise move.  :)  I mirror my data directory over several machines, so even if I did trash the local copy, I have it backed up on three other machines here at home, and one more at my place of work (off-site backup).

Frank.
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#15 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 2:30 PM   		Mike Hughes (sysop)
 
From  Mike Hughes (sysop)  Posts 3919  Last Jun-4
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.15 Message 127752.15 replying to 127752.12 127752.12 ]    
Daine

> Well, I don't see grub.conf but looking under file system I see /boot/grub and I found menu.lst

Some of the distributions change the names of things and use strange file system structures.  Knoppix is one of the worst, precisely because it is a "live CD" system.  The CD is read only, so they create a RAM disk in memory and put all of the stuff which has to be written to in there.  This results in a completely boggled up and non-standard file layout.  If that gets copied to the hard drive it is a mess.  Knoppix also does not let you log into "root", the administrator's account.  You can get a "root shell" off the menu which will let you execute commands with root privileges but you are stuck with text-mode editors.  You need root privileges to edit any of the system files.  This is the primary feature which prevents viruses or intruders from corrupting the system.

Knoppix is a great "live CD" system and it would probably make a good base for a dedicated MythTV system but it is a very poor choice for a general purpose installation because its internal structure is dictated by the necessities of running off a CD.

> That I remember from the Mac but I must confess that I like to know what physical location a file lives in.

That is determined by the file "/etc/fstab" which associates specific devices and partitions with the "mount point" directories where the files associated with that partition will appear in the file system.  Any files written to that subdirectory tree will end up on that physical device.  If you give "/home" its own partition, then anything written to a directory under "/home" will end up on that partition.  You have complete control over it but you don't't have to worry about it in normal operations.

Removable media is normally associated with subdirectories under either "/mnt" or "/media".  This directory will have subdirectories with names like "cdrom" and "floppy".  When you put a CD in the drive. the files on it will appear in "/media/cdrom" or whatever mount point you designate for it.

Mike

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#16 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 2:36 PM   		Mike Hughes (sysop)
 
From  Mike Hughes (sysop)  Posts 3919  Last Jun-4
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.16 Message 127752.16 replying to 127752.12 127752.12 ]    
Daine

> What about performance?

If you run a lot of "daemons", what Windows calls "services", you can clog things up.  The good distributions have utilities which allow you to turn these things on or off depending on what capabilities you actually want to have available.

Mike

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#17 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 4:03 PM   		Bill Dandreta
 
From  Bill Dandreta  Posts 2326  Last Jul-6
To  Mike Hughes (sysop)      [Msg # 127752.17 Message 127752.17 replying to 127752.16 127752.16 ]    
>>If you run a lot of "daemons", what Windows calls "services", you can clog things up.  The good distributions have utilities which allow you to turn these things on or off depending on what capabilities you actually want to have available.<<

That is a serious problem for anybody but an expert.

If you have 50 daemons running how do you know which ones to turn off without breaking anything?

Bill
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#18 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 4:57 PM   		Mike Hughes (sysop)
 
From  Mike Hughes (sysop)  Posts 3919  Last Jun-4
To  Bill Dandreta      [Msg # 127752.18 Message 127752.18 replying to 127752.17 127752.17 ]    
Bill

> If you have 50 daemons running how do you know which ones to turn off without breaking anything?

Fedora's services utility provides a brief explanation of what each daemon does.  They aren't always as clear as you might like but the general rule is: if you don't know what it is, you probably don't need it!  If it does break something, it only takes a click to turn it back on.  At any rate, I think it is a lot easier to turn things off that you don't need than to try to figure out what to install and how to configure things you find out that you do need.  There are probably 6 or 8 of them associated with the network file system.  Anyone using Linux should at least have a vague idea what NFS does and that is enough to know if you need it.  A bunch of them are for IP v.6 and that is definitely a case of, if you don't know what it is, you don't need it.

Mike



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#19 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 8:14 PM   		Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.19 Message 127752.19 replying to 127752.1 127752.1 ]    
Daine,

>> Actually, I would like to just use one to start but I presume either would be big enough for at least 3  of the above distros. <<

Why on earth would you put yourself through this torture? Repeat ten times after me: "Linux is Linux is Linux".

The core components of all distributions come from single sources. All kernels come from the Kernel organization run by Linus Torvalds and his kernel maintainers. The "typical" UNIX utilities that one considers part of the operating system are the GNU versions of the standard UNIX utilities. The X Window System, which is the foundation of graphical user interfaces, comes from a single open source project (actually, two, but one has fallen out of favor, and both are fully compatible because they follow the X Window standards). The "desktops" come from single project teams, and all are built to run on top of X.

Linux distributions differ in the customization performed by the various distributors, and by "value added" includes from the distributors such as proprietary maintenance and installation utilities, or bundled applications. As far as applications go, if the distribution you're using doesn't come with the application you want, odds are you can acquire it and install it.

The only exception here, which actually proves the rule, are the highly customized, special purpose distributions like KnoppMyth, which are more applications with Linux embedded underneath.

Running multiple distributions on top of a single filesystem actually invites a number of obscure, frequently annoying, and sometimes fatal to your data problems.

As you know, Linux supports multiple users, with unique user names. Each user also has a unique user number. Under the covers many functions map the user name, which is for humans, to the user number that the system actually uses. File and directory ownership is stored in the filesystem itself as user numbers, not names. To complicate things, user groups also map to group numbers, and group numbers, not names are stored in the filesystem.

The mapping is arbitrary. Some distributions reserve user numbers below 100 for system functions, and allocated user numbers starting from 100 in the order in which user accounts are created. Other distributions start at 500, or even 1000. And allocate users numbers to user names in the order in which user accounts are created.

Currently there is no mechanism for a second distribution added to a machine to discover and use the user accounts created by a distribution that is already present. If you are very careful, and have only a small number of users, and force multiple distros to allocate numbers from the same starting number (which guru level sysadmins can do), you can finesse this. It's a lot of trouble, and if you get it wrong you end up with problems ranging from users unable to access their data, to data appearing in the wrong account, to data corruption.

Linux assumes that it owns the whole machine, or at worst shares it with a non UNIX-like operating system... in which case there are mechanisms that Linux uses to make the other filesystem behave like a Linux filesystem.

There is not, IMO, a whole lot of value to be learned by attempting to run two, three or more distributions on a shared machine. All the commands are identical. It certainly isn't worth the administrative aggravation.

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!

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#20 of 97

     Posted 2/7/07 8:27 PM   		Doug Yriart (Sysop)
 
From  Doug Yriart (Sysop)  Posts 7893  Last Jul-12
To  Daine      [Msg # 127752.20 Message 127752.20 replying to 127752.9 127752.9 ]    
Daine,

>><<They break down into two major camps:  Those using the RPM package management ...SNIP... and those that use the Debian-based package management >>
       Interesting that the two MythTV distros I looked at, mythdora and knoppmyth also use both, respectively. <<

While Linux distributions do break down into two broad camps based on whether they are descended from Red Hat or Debian, and are RPM or Debian package based, most include package managers that allow you to install software from both kinds of packages. SuSE, for example, is RPM based, but YaST can install and manage Debian packages.

Debian or Red Hat ancestry affects another important aspect of a distribution, system startup and initialization. In the UNIX world there are two schools of thought on system startup and initialization. Some use UNIX System V (as in 5) style initialization. Others used BSD UNIX style initialization. The two systems are similar in concept and different in details such as the specific locations of the initialization files.

Linux divides along the same lines. Distros descended from or mimicking Red Hat use SysV initialization. Systems in the Debian camp use BSD style initialization.

Doug Yriart
Linux Rules!

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