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Contentious Brethren

Don won't pray -- don't ask him

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Message 119539.101 was deleted

#102 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 4:28 PM   
ozspen
 
From  ozspen  Posts 5339  Last Feb-8
To  Janet      [Msg # 119539.102 Message 119539.102 replying to 119539.100 119539.100 ]    
Janet,

Addiction to the poker machines is an increasing problem in Australia.  I have been working with problem gamblers for the last 18 months & the number one gambling problem is with pokies -- it was rare for me to counsel anybody with other than a problem with pokies. 

See this recent article on how football clubs are reaping millions from the losses of poker machine users.  Approx. half of the revenue from pokies comes from problem gamblers. 

We have an Australian independent federal Senator, Nick Xenophon, now in Canberra (formerly a "No Pokies" member of the South Australian upper house), who is a strong advocate in exposing the damage that pokies are doing to Australians.

In my city of about 55,000 people, pokies' users lose approximately $3million a month.  If half of this revenue comes from problem gamblers who are wrecking their finances, their families' lives, and suffering emotional distress, what are governments doing as they rake in millions in revenue?  My state of Queensland expects to earn $550 million this year from taxes on the pokies (documented in the last of the following articles).

Here are some articles exposing the problem:

Pokies pocket record profit from gamblers

Queensland forced into rethink by $1.86b pokie splurge” 

Rivers of gold from pokie palaces.”  This article states:

The State Government offers little public feedback on the industry for fear of an anti-gambling backlash. This may be because it gets a staggering $10.5 million a week, or $550 million a year, from the machines.

Sincerely, Spencer

Edited Aug-21   by  ozspen

Edited Aug-21   by  ozspen
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#103 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 5:12 PM   
Shazz
 
From  Shazz  Posts 1888  Last Jan-30
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.103 Message 119539.103 replying to 119539.102 119539.102 ]    
Here in Illinois, the governor recently signed a bill allowing video poker machines in the state. A lot of municipalities are setting up their own restrictions on the system, even though it means they won't get revenue from the machines. I am totally opposed to them -- from what I've read, they are like "crack" for the brain.

Sharon
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#104 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 5:46 PM   
Janet
 
From  Janet  Posts 1466  Last 10:00 AM
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.104 Message 119539.104 replying to 119539.102 119539.102 ]    
>>My state of Queensland expects to earn $550 million this year from taxes on the pokies<<

I don't suppose any of this filthy lucre will go to pay for free health care or unemployment benefits....

But seriously, lotteries are evil enough, but poker machines and the like are especially insidious because they  provide instant gratification.  Lotteries at least make you wait three or four days before you find out whether you've won or thrown your money down the toilet, and few people are likely to drop several hundred or more dollars in an hour's time buying lottery tickets.

Janet

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#105 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 5:47 PM   
Janet
 
From  Janet  Posts 1466  Last 10:00 AM
To  Shazz      [Msg # 119539.105 Message 119539.105 replying to 119539.103 119539.103 ]    
>>I am totally opposed to [video poker machines] -- from what I've read, they are like "crack" for the brain.<<

They're the sign of an evil generation.

Janet
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#106 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 5:54 PM   
ozspen
 
From  ozspen  Posts 5339  Last Feb-8
To  Shazz      [Msg # 119539.106 Message 119539.106 replying to 119539.103 119539.103 ]    
Sharon,
<<Here in Illinois, the governor recently signed a bill allowing video poker machines in the state. A lot of municipalities are setting up their own restrictions on the system, even though it means they won't get revenue from the machines. I am totally opposed to them -- from what I've read, they are like "crack" for the brain.>>
Please don’t get me going on the devastation that poker machines will bring to individuals, families & communities!  Expect it in Illinois.  This obsession/addiction (whatever you want to call it) tears the heart out of individuals and families. 

Like drug addicts, those who are obsessed with pokies are liars, cheats and thieves.  That’s what they do to families, businesses and employers.  They lie about where the money is going, cheat on how they get their money, and steal to pay for the habit. 

The Queensland premier who introduced poker machines to our state in 1992, this year stated that pokies were a “scourge.”  See this article, “Wayne Goss regrets bringing poker machines to Queensland.” According to this article, in 2008-09, the Qld. government was expected to earn $578million from gaming machine taxes.

Below is an article I wrote last year for a local newspaper.

Sincerely, Spencer


Gambling: An Addiction Hard to Tame

By Spencer Gear

Australia has a love affair with gambling. Almost 21% percent of the world’s pokies are in Australia.[1] For most people, gambling is a pleasurable activity. Sadly for some, it has become an addiction that they cannot tame.

Australia's Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, has stated, "I hate poker machines and I know something of their impact on families."[2]

Gambling devours their savings and hopes at an astonishing rate. About 80% of Australians gamble, but 40% of these play at least once a week. The majority of them gamble responsibly.

However it is estimated that about 2% of the population, about 330,000 Australians, have severe or moderate problem gambling habits and about 140,000 have severe problems. Of that number, for "about 70 per cent, their major activity is poker machines."[3]

Australians spend more on gambling than they do on food. In the financial year 2006-2007, we spent almost $91.5 million on food. That's about $4350 each for the year according to Bureau of Statistics figures.

However, in the previous year, 2005-06, gaming industry figures show that adults spent $148 million on gambling. That's an average of $9491 each spent on gambling, which includes figures from tourists.[4] That is, we spend 61% more on gambling than we did on food.

How much of this gambling money goes to the venue? "The average actual gaming 'profit' (before tax) is about a tenth of turnover."[5]

For those with a gambling addiction, families suffer the shame of losing their assets, being evicted from housing, and empty food cupboards. Marriages break up. Back in 1999, the Productivity Commission estimated that there are about 1600 gambling-related divorces and 1600 gambling-related separations in Australia annually. [6]

Work, health and emotional issues are sometimes impacted badly by gambling.

One estimate was that for each person who engages in excessive gambling, 5-10 other people around them are affected.[7]

Gambling is an addiction for some that is difficult to tame.

Please don't under estimate the impact of gambling on suicide thinking and action – especially for the older generation. A recent USA study found that for adults over age 55 who had been gambling an average of 17 years before they sought self-exclusion (banning oneself) from gaming venues, they had a greater risk of suicide. The research indicated that nearly 14 percent of older adults surveyed sought help because they wanted to prevent themselves from committing suicide.[8]

One of the researchers, Lia Nower, said that "this is particularly troubling because, irrespective of age, problem gamblers have reported rates of suicidal ideation and/or attempts as high as six times those found in the general population."[9]

What can you do to help yourself with taming a gambling addiction? What can you as a family member do to limit the damage done by gambling in your family?

Spencer Gear, Lifeline service manager, MA (couns. psych.).


[1] "Russell Crowe rallies against gambling," China Daily, 2008-01-03, available from: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/2008-01/03/content_6368802.htm [cited 15 November 2008]. This article is in Appendix A

[2] Ibid.

[3] Maxine McKew, 19 July 1999, 7.30 Report, ABC television Australia, "Productivity Commission exposes poker machine culture," available from: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s37514.htm [15 November 2008].

[4] Peter Jean , June 11, 2008, "Australians spend more on gambling than on food," Herald Sun¸ available from: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23844130-662,00.html [15 November 2008].

[5] Betty Conn Walker, 2003, "Vilified pokies not the root of all evil," Sydney Morning Herald, November 20, available from:
...[Message truncated]
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#107 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 6:09 PM   
ozspen
 
From  ozspen  Posts 5339  Last Feb-8
To  Janet      [Msg # 119539.107 Message 119539.107 replying to 119539.104 119539.104 ]    
Janet,
<<I don't suppose any of this filthy lucre [from poker machines] will go to pay for free health care or unemployment benefits....>>
We had free health care in Queensland and unemployment benefits from the federal government before the poker machines came to the state in 1992.
<< Lotteries at least make you wait three or four days before you find out whether you've won or thrown your money down the toilet, and few people are likely to drop several hundred or more dollars in an hour's time buying lottery tickets. >>
In 18 months of counselling gamblers, only one had a problem with gambling on the horses, one had a problem with Scratchies (instant casket tickets), and the rest had problems with pokies. 

I know of a person who stole over $100,000 from her employer to finance her pokies' habit.

For every problem gambler, 5-10 other people are affected.  About 2% of Australia's adults are problem gamblers.

In legalising alcohol & gambling to obtain revenue, governments are creating negative social consequences in our communities.  They will continue to offer funds to non-profit organisations to address some of these social needs, but when governments promote activities that devastate people, families and communities, one has to ask what is going on here. 

Sincerely, Spencer

P.S.  This subject is right off topic now.  Perhaps these posts on gambling need to go to the "Contentious Brethren" folder.  The sysops will do that if needed.

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#108 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 7:27 PM   
Shazz
 
From  Shazz  Posts 1888  Last Jan-30
To  Janet      [Msg # 119539.108 Message 119539.108 replying to 119539.105 119539.105 ]    
>>They're the sign of an evil generation.

I would be interested to know who invented them. They are definitely a scourge. I have to go to Las Vegas from time to time for work, and I remember sitting at the bar of our hotel with a colleague, having a drink, and they had poker machines built right in to the bartop. The "lady" sitting next to me was just mindlessly inserting coin after coin into the machine; her eyes seemed to actually be glazing over a bit. I was trying to imagine she was having fun, but I couldn't make myself believe it.

Sharon
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#109 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 7:29 PM   
Shazz
 
From  Shazz  Posts 1888  Last Jan-30
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.109 Message 119539.109 replying to 119539.106 119539.106 ]    
>>Please don’t get me going on the devastation that poker machines will bring to individuals, families & communities!  Expect it in Illinois.  This obsession/addiction (whatever you want to call it) tears the heart out of individuals and families.

That's why I'm glad to see a lot of communities going ahead and banning them before the law goes into effect Jan. 1. Our governor seems to think it's an easy way to generate revenue for our cash-strapped state, but at what cost?

Sharon
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#110 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 7:55 PM   
threeinwon7
 
From  threeinwon7  Posts 4874  Last 9:04 AM
To  Janet      [Msg # 119539.110 Message 119539.110 replying to 119539.105 119539.105 ]    
>>I am totally opposed to [video poker machines] -- from what I've read, they are like "crack" for the brain.<<

>They're the sign of an evil generation.<

An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a pokie?
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#111 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 8:19 PM   
DonTom
 
From  DonTom  Posts 1655  Last 9:19 AM
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.111 Message 119539.111 replying to 119539.106 119539.106 ]    
What does the Bible say about gambling, if anything?

BTW, Tom loves to play Spin Poker on those machines when we are at our other home near Reno. Chinese gamble about as much as Americans like to drink.

He also owns a collection of slot machines. Here in CA, they have to be at least 25 years old to be legal for people to own. In NV, any age slot machine is legal for anybody. So we have newer ones in NV, but when they are 25 years old (or even when very near 25 years old) they are worth twice as much because of the CA collectors.

BTW, isn't excessive drinking even a bigger problem there in Australia?

                                                 -Don-
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#112 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 8:39 PM   
Janet
 
From  Janet  Posts 1466  Last 10:00 AM
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.112 Message 119539.112 replying to 119539.107 119539.107 ]    
>> This subject is right off topic now.  Perhaps these posts on gambling need to go to the "Contentious Brethren" folder.<<

I don't think they do that when the posters are in agreement.  Now whether it gets big enough to be its own separate thread, that's a different story.

Janet
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#113 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 8:46 PM   
Janet
 
From  Janet  Posts 1466  Last 10:00 AM
To  Shazz      [Msg # 119539.113 Message 119539.113 replying to 119539.108 119539.108 ]    
>>>>They're the sign of an evil generation.<<<<

>>I would be interested to know who invented them.<<

I don't know, but I have a foreboding feeling about where he wound up.  Maybe somewhere in the Fifth Circle.

Janet
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#114 of 130

     Posted Aug-21 8:47 PM   
Janet
 
From  Janet  Posts 1466  Last 10:00 AM
To  threeinwon7      [Msg # 119539.114 Message 119539.114 replying to 119539.110 119539.110 ]    
>>>They're the sign of an evil generation.<<<

>>An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a pokie?<<

That sounds about right to me.

Janet
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#115 of 130

     Posted Aug-22 6:11 AM   
ozspen
 
From  ozspen  Posts 5339  Last Feb-8
To  Shazz      [Msg # 119539.115 Message 119539.115 replying to 119539.109 119539.109 ]    
Sharon,
<<That's why I'm glad to see a lot of communities going ahead and banning them before the law goes into effect Jan. 1. Our governor seems to think it's an easy way to generate revenue for our cash-strapped state, but at what cost?>>
How is it that individual communities can have the power to ban them prior to the law taking effect?  Won't those communities lose that power as of Jan. 1?  Or, does local county legislation override any later State legislation?

Regards, Spencer
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#116 of 130

     Posted Aug-22 7:36 AM   
Shazz
 
From  Shazz  Posts 1888  Last Jan-30
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.116 Message 119539.116 replying to 119539.115 119539.115 ]    
>>Won't those communities lose that power as of Jan. 1?  Or, does local county legislation override any later State legislation?

You know, they must have set the language of the law up so that communities could opt out if they wanted to. And, yes, I believe that after Jan. 1, if local businesses want to install these machines, they will be able to if the municipality hasn't banned them. So a lot of towns and county boards are holding hearings on the matter now so they can get local laws on the books.

Sharon


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#117 of 130

     Posted Aug-22 5:12 PM   
ozspen
 
From  ozspen  Posts 5339  Last Feb-8
To  DonTom      [Msg # 119539.117 Message 119539.117 replying to 119539.111 119539.111 ]    
Don,
<<What does the Bible say about gambling, if anything? >>
Generally you pay no attention to what the Bible says about most things.  Why are you interested in the Bible's view of gambling when you are such a doubter?

This brief article (below) from WikiAnswers provides a biblical response to your question.

As for alcohol problems in Australia, we have similar problems to other countries of the world. 

We do have a “National Alcohol Strategy: 2006-2009,” which states that:

In Australia, the annual cost to the community of alcohol-related social problems was estimated to be $7.6 billion ($5.5 billion tangible) in 1998-99. The greatest costs are borne by workplaces as a result of reductions in the size and capacity of the workforce and worker absenteeism due to alcohol-related issues (see Figure 1). These costs are partly offset by the net government revenue from alcohol related taxes, which is estimated to be $5.5 billion in 2004/05 (DSICA 2005). The alcohol industry is also a significant contributor to the broader Australian economy, contributing $18.3 billion in 2004-05, and directly employing 36,000 people and indirectly contributing to the employment of 205,000 people in pubs, taverns and bars (DSICA 2005).

See: “Shock alcohol ads don’t work.”

Sincerely, Spencer

Does the Bible condemn gambling?[1]

The Bible indicates that gambling is incompatible with Christianity. Some, for example, may feel that gambling simply fills an economic need. But Jesus taught us to pray, Give us today our bread for this day. How could a person greedily gamble for money and then pray this? Or how could he follow the exhortation: Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things [material necessities] will be added to you? (Matthew 6:11, 33).

The Bible further advises: Let your manner of life be free of the love of money, while you are content with the present things (Hebrews 13:5). The gambler often is anything but content. In fact, he is greedy, and the Bible says that greedy persons will not inherit God's kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9,10).

True, some argue that they gamble not for money but for excitement. The Bible roundly condemns, however, those who sidestep godly principles and become lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God. (2 Timothy 3:4, 5) Further, Jesus said: "You must love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39). How can a person love his neighbor while trying to take away his neighbor's money? How can gambling be harmonized with the fundamental principle, There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving? (Acts 20:35).

Not to be overlooked is the fact that gamblers often invoke the god of Good Luck, something the Bible clearly condemns(Isaiah 65:11).

Finally, consider the corrupting influence gambling has on a Christian's useful habits (1 Corinthians 15:33). The Christian way of life involves hard work and thrift (Ephesians 4:28). Jesus himself showed he was not wasteful when, after the miraculous multiplication of the loaves and the fishes, he gave orders that the leftovers were not to be wasted. (John 6:12, 13) But rather than following in Jesus' footsteps, the gambler is more akin to the prodigal son in Jesus' parable, who squandered his property by living a debauched life (Luke 15:13).

Verses on "casting lots"

Numbers 26:52-56 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ... the land shall be divided by lot.

Joshua 14:2 By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

Joshua 18:6 Ye shall therefore describe the land into seven parts, and bring the description hither to me, that I may cast lots for you here before the LORD our God.

Joshua 19:51 These are the inheritances, which Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun, and the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel, divided for an inheritance by lot in Shiloh before the LORD.

Joshua 21:8 And the children of Israel gave by lot unto the Levites these cities with their suburbs, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

1 Chr.26:13-14 And they cast lots, as well the small as the great, according to the house of their fathers, for every gate. And the lot eastward fell to Shelemiah. Then for Zechariah his son, a wise counsellor, they cast lots; and his lot came out northward.

Nehemiah 10:34 And we cast the lots among the priests, the Levites, and the people, for the wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God.

Acts 1:23-26 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen.... And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Note that all of the above passages deal with discerning God's will through random chance, not "gambling" in the sense of using chance or "luck" to win or lose money.


[1] WikiAnswers.com, available from: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_Bible_condemn_gambling [cited 23 August 2009].



Edited Aug-22   by  ozspen
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#118 of 130

     Posted Aug-23 2:16 AM   
DonTom
 
From  DonTom  Posts 1655  Last 9:19 AM
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.118 Message 119539.118 replying to 119539.117 119539.117 ]    
Spencer,

"Generally you pay no attention to what the Bible says about most things.  Why are you interested in the Bible's view of gambling when you are such a doubter?"

Just curious, as I didn't think it did, but noticed a lot of Christians here seem to be  very against gambling, yet I didn't think the Bible even mentioned such.
Of course, I realize it can be interpreted to mean it's against gambling or just about anything else.

"As for alcohol problems in Australia, we have similar problems to other countries of the world."

Some countries seem to have more alcohol related problems than others,  but I would have to guess why. I hear Russia tops the list, but I have also heard that Australia has more than its share of alcoholics and related problems. 


"Some, for example, may feel that gambling simply fills an economic need."

IMO, gambling is more like a drug one can get "high" and "low" from.
I don't think money really has much to do with why people gamble, other than money (or something of value) is required to gamble. Low slow action gambling, such as the lotto could be a weaker drug, where one simply "dreams" about winning the big one. IOW, IMAO, people gamble for the same reasons as people turn to booze, other drugs (includes religions such as Christianity, IMAO).  These are all mainly drugs, IMAO, but some drugs are more obvious drugs than others.

"How can a person love his neighbor while trying to take away his neighbor's money?"

Gambling is a very important business to some areas. Think of Las Vegas, NV. Because of their legalized gambling, countless tens of thousands of people are employed. Hotels stay full and all the related jobs such as restaurants, etc. do very well.

And ANY business tries to take away money from their neighbors! Some give you back a product, some give you entertainment (such as gambling or going out to watch professional sports, etc).

IMO, gambling (or drinking) is only a "sin" when it's done excessively and causes unnecessary problems in one's life. Much like anything else. Even Christianity, IMO.

"Men are not punished for their sins, but by them."
--Elbert Hubbard

"Sin is not harmful because it is forbidden, but it is forbidden because it is hurtful."
--Benjamin Franklin


"Man-like it is to fall into sin; fiendlike it is to dwell therein."
--Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

"There is no sin except stupidity."
--Oscar Wilde


"A man's worst difficulties begin when he is able to do as he likes."
--Thomas Huxley

"No man is free who is not a master of himself."
--Epictetus


                                        
Sincerely,      -Don Quoteman


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#119 of 130

     Posted Aug-23 3:10 AM   
ozspen
 
From  ozspen  Posts 5339  Last Feb-8
To  DonTom      [Msg # 119539.119 Message 119539.119 replying to 119539.118 119539.118 ]    
Don,
<<Just curious, as I didn't think it did, but noticed a lot of Christians here seem to be  very against gambling, yet I didn't think the Bible even mentioned such. Of course, I realize it can be interpreted to mean it's against gambling or just about anything else.>>
Today I've been working on an article that I'll probably call, "God and gambling," that I'll put on my homepage.  I'll let you know when I upload it.  It is based on my understanding of Scripture and what I believe should be a Christian response to the gambling culture.

Sincerely, Spencer
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#120 of 130

     Posted Aug-23 6:46 AM   
DonTom
 
From  DonTom  Posts 1655  Last 9:19 AM
To  ozspen      [Msg # 119539.120 Message 119539.120 replying to 119539.119 119539.119 ]    
"Today I've been working on an article that I'll probably call, "God and gambling," that I'll put on my homepage.  I'll let you know when I upload it.  It is based on my understanding of Scripture and what I believe should be a Christian response to the gambling culture."

Okay, thanks. I will read it as long as it's not as long as reading a Bible <g>.

-Don-
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Contentious Brethren

Don won't pray -- don't ask him

  
 
     

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