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Message Area
International Affairs

Theo van Gogh Day

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#1 of 75

     Posted Nov-2 10:44 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5734  Last Nov-21
To  All      [Msg # 213487.1 ]    

"AMSTERDAM — The Dutch marked the fifth anniversary Monday of the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a Muslim fanatic, a brutal killing that continues to shape politics in the Netherlands."

For those who recall, Theo van Gogh, a distant relative of the famous painter, collaborated with another fierce opponent of Islam, a Somali born beauty, the slender and sultry Ayaan Hirsi Ali, fierce feminist and one time Dutch Parliamentarian, in the making of the film submission. The film sought to expose the abuses on women at the mercy of Islam.

For his 'obsession'- since distaste for crimes in the name of Islam is objected to as bigoted obsession- Theo van Gogh was gunned down while cycling in Amsterdam. A paper pinned to his chest threatened his partner in crime, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, with same fate.

Should the Dutch be marking the anniversary of Theo van Gogh's death? Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry?

 

 

Juin

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#2 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 7:33 AM   
Poorch3
 
From  Poorch3  Posts 2013  Last Nov-13
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.2 Message 213487.2 replying to 213487.1 213487.1 ]    

>>>Should the Dutch be marking the anniversary of Theo van Gogh's death? Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry?<<<

The Dutch are correct.
The official anniversary is an annual "teaching moment" designed to highlight their national commitment to freedom of speech and of the Arts.
The way the question was asked here makes me wonder who is struggling with a preoccupation with bigotry.

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#3 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 7:50 AM   
corlisskip
 
From  corlisskip  Posts 8176  Last 8:51 AM
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.3 Message 213487.3 replying to 213487.1 213487.1 ]    
Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry?

You left yourself wide open this time, Juin. Sorry, but, the only obsessive preoccupation that amounts to bigotry here is yours regarding Islam.......

Corliss

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#4 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 7:53 AM   
Kevin(Sysop)
 
From  Kevin(Sysop)  Posts 10077  Last Nov-21
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.4 Message 213487.4 replying to 213487.1 213487.1 ]    

The film sought to expose the abuses on women at the mercy of Islam. //

And here's the real problem Juin.  Had you said, "The film sought to expose the abuses on women at the mercy of radical, fundamentalist Muslims", you would have had a very good point, well worth discussing.

When you blame the actions of a minority on the whole, you get to a very inaccurate place.

Kevin

“Hate is not overcome by hate; by love (metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.”-Guatama Buddha

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#5 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 7:55 AM   
JWZubrick
 
From  JWZubrick  Posts 2755  Last Nov-21
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.5 Message 213487.5 replying to 213487.1 213487.1 ]    
Should the Dutch be marking the anniversary of Theo van Gogh's death? Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not in conservative circles, anyway.  To celebrate this death would give more credence to this nonsense of a "hate crime."  As all right-wingers know, there is no such thing as a hate crime.



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#6 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:14 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5734  Last Nov-21
To  corlisskip      [Msg # 213487.6 Message 213487.6 replying to 213487.3 213487.3 ]    
Juin<<Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry<<

Corlisskip<<You left yourself wide open this time, Juin. Sorry, but, the only obsessive preoccupation that amounts to bigotry here is yours regarding Islam.....<<

Of course, I am sure Theo van Gogh in his grave blames me for his death. If I was not so bigotted that Allah's brigand would not have gunned him down.:)

 

Juin

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#7 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:24 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5734  Last Nov-21
To  Kevin(Sysop)      [Msg # 213487.7 Message 213487.7 replying to 213487.4 213487.4 ]    

Juin<<The film sought to expose the abuses on women at the mercy of Islam.<<

Kevin>>And here's the real problem Juin.  Had you said, "The film sought to expose the abuses on women at the mercy of radical, fundamentalist Muslims", you would have had a very good point, well worth discussing.<<

No. I will not. I am tired of intellectual cowardice, Kevin.

The rejection of gender equality as well as the elevation of man over woman is a not a sectarian muslim belief but rather a belief across the broad spectrum of Islam.

Why do you think that moslem countries rejected the UN Declaration of Human Rights and proposed an Islamic Declaration of Human Rights?

The reason was simple. The UN Declaration of Human Rights in rejecting absolutely gender bias challenged in no ambiguous terms the Islamic Sharia.

The Islamic Declaration of Human Rights is just a belated attempt to mask the horror of Sharia in decent coverings.

Kevin>>When you blame the actions of a minority on the whole, you get to a very inaccurate place.<<

No. I see it different. You are using the majority as a cover to escape a fundamental duty to stand with the victims of Islam. To you the feelings of the majority are more important than the neck of say 16 year old Atefah Saahalehi, who was hung in the name of Allah in Iran for seducing 51 year old Ali Durabi.

 

Juin

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#8 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:27 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5734  Last Nov-21
To  JWZubrick      [Msg # 213487.8 Message 213487.8 replying to 213487.5 213487.5 ]    

Juin<<Should the Dutch be marking the anniversary of Theo van Gogh's death? Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry?<<


JWZubrick<<Not in conservative circles, anyway.  To celebrate this death would give more credence to this nonsense of a "hate crime."  As all right-wingers know, there is no such thing as a hate crime.<<

lol  That was kind of a different answer than I expected, but I see your point.:)

 

Juin

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#9 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:35 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5734  Last Nov-21
To  Poorch3      [Msg # 213487.9 Message 213487.9 replying to 213487.2 213487.2 ]    

Juin>>Should the Dutch be marking the anniversary of Theo van Gogh's death? Or is this a case of obsessive preoccupation amounting to bigotry?<<<

Poorch>>The Dutch are correct.
The official anniversary is an annual "teaching moment" designed to highlight their national commitment to freedom of speech and of the Arts.<<

Yet that commitment to the freedom of speech and of the Arts was extended only in a miserly fashion when it came to the sultry Somali beauty Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Dutch feminist and Parliamentarian, who had a death fatwa on her head.

 

Poorch>>The way the question was asked here makes me wonder who is struggling with a preoccupation with bigotry.<<

Not preoccupation with bigotry per se, but rather a growing hostility against the shameful misuse of the word 'bigotry' by the friends of Islam as a weapon to intimidate and silence any assaults on Islam for crimes committed in its name.

 

Juin

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#10 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:38 PM   
Sysop Jim Dellon
 
From  Sysop Jim Dellon  Posts 30265  Last Nov-21
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.10 Message 213487.10 replying to 213487.1 213487.1 ]    
Juin --

>>Should the Dutch be marking the anniversary of Theo van Gogh's death?<<

Will you post a similar message on May 31st, the anniversary of the murder of Dr. George Tiller while he was praying at church?  Should all Americans be marking that sorrowful anniversary?

-- jim
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#11 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:39 PM   
Sysop Jim Dellon
 
From  Sysop Jim Dellon  Posts 30265  Last Nov-21
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.11 Message 213487.11 replying to 213487.7 213487.7 ]    
Juin --

>>The rejection of gender equality as well as the elevation of man over woman is a not a sectarian muslim belief but rather a belief across the broad spectrum of Islam.<<

Oh, my.  I eagerly await your blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church (and many other male dominated faiths) on similar grounds.

-- jim
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#12 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 4:53 PM   
kasaleliah
 
From  kasaleliah  Posts 8000  Last Nov-21
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.12 Message 213487.12 replying to 213487.7 213487.7 ]    
The rejection of gender equality as well as the elevation of man over woman is a not a sectarian muslim belief but rather a belief across the broad spectrum of Islam.

Remind us again, Juin.  What was the name of the most recent female Pope?





Why do I carry a gun?  Because I'm askeered of my own shadow.  Even after I shot it!
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#13 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 5:08 PM   
raincitytroll
 
From  raincitytroll  Posts 4748  Last 3:10 AM
To  Sysop Jim Dellon      [Msg # 213487.13 Message 213487.13 replying to 213487.11 213487.11 ]    
**Oh, my.  I eagerly await your blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church (and many other male dominated faiths) on similar grounds.**

good thing i read the rest of the thread before posting because i was going to say the same thing as you.  <g>

i wonder if someone will respond with "yeah, but the degree of misogyny in 'X' church is reasonable and, in fact, beneficial to society."  moreover, since misogyny and chauvinism transcend religion, i wonder if juin and his kindred spirits condemn entire cultures with oppressive, patriarchal societies.  i highly doubt it.

what will happen, though, is that some people will call folks like us intolerant or (ironically) bigots for acknowledging their bigotry.  i can think of at least six people off the top of my head who will at least be thinking that.
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#14 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 5:11 PM   
corlisskip
 
From  corlisskip  Posts 8176  Last 8:51 AM
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.14 Message 213487.14 replying to 213487.6 213487.6 ]    

Why must you criticize an entire religion for the acts of the militants in the ranks? That's my problem with your Islam bashing, Juin.

And of course you're not to blame van Gogh's murder, but neither is my friend Deane who converted to Islam when she married a man of that faith.

Corliss

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#15 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 9:29 PM   
Michael H.
 
From  Michael H.  Posts 3319  Last 7:25 AM
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.15 Message 213487.15 replying to 213487.7 213487.7 ]    
>> The rejection of gender equality as well as the elevation of man over woman is a not a sectarian muslim belief but rather a belief across the broad spectrum of Islam. <<

And across the broad spectrum of Catholicism, as well, I think.  After all, the Catholic Church forbids women from joining the priesthood, does it not?



"You have absolutely no reason, none,
to trust our words or our actions at this point."

Michael Steele
Chairman of the
Republican National Committee
Feb 13th, 2009
Free Your Mind.
Free Yourself.
Ferrapontifex Invictus

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#16 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 9:44 PM   
Michael H.
 
From  Michael H.  Posts 3319  Last 7:25 AM
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.16 Message 213487.16 replying to 213487.7 213487.7 ]    
>> Why do you think that moslem countries rejected the UN Declaration of Human Rights and proposed an Islamic Declaration of Human Rights? <<

Why do you think the Vatican rejected the a proposed United Nations declaration which would - for the first time  – call for civil rights for gays, lesbians and the transgendered?



"You have absolutely no reason, none,
to trust our words or our actions at this point."

Michael Steele
Chairman of the
Republican National Committee
Feb 13th, 2009
Free Your Mind.
Free Yourself.
Ferrapontifex Invictus

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#17 of 75

     Posted Nov-3 9:54 PM   
Michael H.
 
From  Michael H.  Posts 3319  Last 7:25 AM
To  kasaleliah      [Msg # 213487.17 Message 213487.17 replying to 213487.12 213487.12 ]    
>> Remind us again, Juin.  What was the name of the most recent female Pope? <<

Joan?

[Okay, maybe not, but click the link to check it out anyway.]



"You have absolutely no reason, none,
to trust our words or our actions at this point."

Michael Steele
Chairman of the
Republican National Committee
Feb 13th, 2009
Free Your Mind.
Free Yourself.
Ferrapontifex Invictus

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#18 of 75

     Posted Nov-4 12:28 AM   
Rsbegone
 
From  Rsbegone  Posts 4738  Last 6:21 AM
To  Juin      [Msg # 213487.18 Message 213487.18 replying to 213487.6 213487.6 ]    

Of course, I am sure Theo van Gogh in his grave blames me for his death. If I was not so bigotted that Allah's brigand would not have gunned him down.:)

What's the difference btween this incident and rightwing Christians gunning down abortion doctors?  Seems to me that both groups have the same motto:  You Go Against My Religion You Die!

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#19 of 75

     Posted Nov-4 12:36 AM   
Rsbegone
 
From  Rsbegone  Posts 4738  Last 6:21 AM
To  Michael H.      [Msg # 213487.19 Message 213487.19 replying to 213487.15 213487.15 ]    

And across the broad spectrum of Catholicism, as well, I think.  After all, the Catholic Church forbids women from joining the priesthood, does it not?

Don't forget about them Southern Baptists!

 "A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation... "

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

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#20 of 75

     Posted Nov-4 2:31 PM   
Juin
 
From  Juin  Posts 5734  Last Nov-21
To  Rsbegone      [Msg # 213487.20 Message 213487.20 replying to 213487.18 213487.18 ]    

Rsbegone>>What's the difference between this incident and rightwing Christians gunning down abortion doctors?  Seems to me that both groups have the same motto:  You Go Against My Religion You Die!<<

And how does vicious denunciation of the gunning down of abortion doctors translate to bigotry by the denouncer?

I am not asking you to desist from viciously denouncing the gunning down of abortion doctors, nor am I calling you a bigot for doing so. Christianity, Christians, as well as Buddhists, Hindus cannot be above critique or denunciation. Nothing is, cannot be, nor should be above criticism and denunciation.

What I denounce is that intellectual masquerade that seeks to protect Islam from criticism and denunciation; further seeks to elevate denunciations of criticism of Islam to a virtue and classifies criticism of Islam as acts of bigotry.

 

Juin

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