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BI Methods

Portfolio Management Workshop

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#2 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 11:34 AM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 721  Last Nov-18
To  All      [Msg # 28277.2 Message 28277.2 replying to 28277.1 28277.1 ]    

An Overview of Portfolio Management Introduction

Welcome to our seminar in portfolio management (PM).

When asked me to do a seminar on PM I began to think of all of the presentations I’d seen at the various events. I’ve seen many great presentations on specific topics like PERT Worksheet A, PERT Report, .PMG, & when to sell, etc.

What I’ve never really seen is an overview of NAIC PM so that’s what I decided to do here, review “the big picture.”

The following is my own interpretation of NAIC methodology. No stock mentioned in this presentation should be construed as a recommendation to purchase. Please use your own judgment.

I have been influenced by many different individuals. I’ll try to credit them where I remember, but if I forget and leave some out, I do thank them and I apologize. I have used a few graphics from Ellis Traub’s 1999 online PM tutorial and wish to credit him for those. I believe Phil Keating originated the Weeding-Feeding method of PM and Cy Lynch expanded it to Planting-Weeding-Feeding-Pruning. Ellis Traub recommends the football analogy of PM with Defense and Offense. I like the Phil Keating-Cy Lynch gardening analogy as well as the Ellis Traub defense-offense football analogy of PM. They fit together very nicely and having two different views of the same process is helpful. It’s akin to viewing a situation with both eyes rather than just one.

Cy’s article can be found at: http://www.better-investing.org/articles/bits/119/937

 Ellis’s online PM tutorial can be found at: http://old.better-investing.org/educate/portmgt/pm2.html

I’ve added one more step to the gardening analogy so I have five parts to my “big picture” of PM

     1.  Planning – set your goals in writing

     2. Planting – pick your stocks Weeding or Defense - get rid of the losers

     3. Feeding – take care of the healthy and care for the sick

     4. Pruning or Offense – trimming back overgrown stocks

I especially like the gardening analogy because both gardening and stock investing are concerned with growth. (Football fans, however, may prefer Ellis’ analogy of defense and offense.) You have to plan a garden. You have to tend the garden to get good results. You can’t just throw some seeds out and come back in a couple of months and expect to have good results. You have to watch the garden and do routine chores to keep it growing. You have to remove the weeds so they don’t choke out the good plants. If the plants become overgrown, you’ll have to prune them back or thin them out. And you have to keep an eye out for new improved hybrids that offer superior growth. Just like you do with a portfolio.

So what’s your big picture of portfolio management? How and why does it differ from mine?

In the next post we’ll look at planning a NAIC type portfolio. Questions? Comments? Ask them here on the new CompuServe Forum.

I’m going to include a short biography of the individuals mentioned in this article as an introduction to folks unfamiliar with them.

Phil Keating – Honorary Chairperson, NAIC Computer Group. Author of the monthly Value Line screen in NAIC’s BITS online magazine.

Cy Lynch – Cy received his law degree from the . He was active with the NAIC Chapter and served as its vice president of education. In 1998 he received NAIC's O'Hara Award in recognition of his service to the Atlanta Chapter, and he is a recipient of the Investment Education Institute's Distinguished Service Award in Investment Education

Ellis Traub – Ellis is chairman of Inve$tWare Corporation, developer of NAIC's Investor's Toolkit software, and a frequent teacher and speaker on investing using NAIC principles and respected contributor on NAIC's I-Club-List and NAIC CompuServe Forum

Dan Hess - Dan is an individual investor, lives in and serves as a director on the Central North Carolina Chapter. Dan is a long-time resident and respected contributor on NAIC's I-Club-List and NAIC CompuServe Forum.

Jim Thomas - Jim is an individual investor and NAIC member from . One of his hobbies is developing Excel spreadsheet-based tools to facilitate his NAIC stock studies. He is a and respected contributor on NAIC's I-Club-List and NAIC CompuServe Forum.

Rich Beaubien - Rich has been an NAIC member since the late 1980s, and charter member of the NAIC Massachusetts Chapter Computer Group. Past president of the Massachusetts Chapter of the NAIC and a former associate director of the Computer Group, he is currently an adviser to the NAIC Massachusetts Chapter.

Mark Robertson – Senior Contributing Editor Better Investing magazine, Challenge Club moderator on CompuServe Forum, and respected contributor to the I-Club-List and NAIC CompuServe Forum.

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, NAIC
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#3 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 12:28 PM   
Carl Fisher
 
From  Carl Fisher  Posts 146  Last 4/19/09
To  Gary Simms      [Msg # 28277.3 Message 28277.3 replying to 28277.2 28277.2 ]    
Gary,

I'm eagerly waiting for the discussion to get going on this subject.  It is something that I think I personally need to do more of and that most people don't even consider.

I have question before we get going.  Is this workshop going to focus only on the stock portion of an investment portfolio or can NAIC tools be used to manage one with more than stocks?

Carl Fisher
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#4 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 1:30 PM   
NancyC, Admin
 
From  NancyC, Admin  Posts 10143  Last Jun-9
To  Gary Simms      [Msg # 28277.4 Message 28277.4 replying to 28277.2 28277.2 ]    
"I especially like the gardening analogy because both gardening and stock investing are concerned with growth. (Football fans, however, may prefer Ellis’ analogy of defense and offense.) "
Now I know why I have so much trouble with the offense and defense analogy - I am not a football fan.  The only football games I like are those which the University of Texas play.  Thus, I never remember which is the offensive or defensive portfolio management.  My husband is the gardener, but I enjoy cooking and eating the fruits of his labor, so I guess I prefer the gardening analogy.  I'm glad you tied the two approaches together.  Maybe it will help me remember which is offense and which is defense.

Nancy Crays
NAIC Forum - Long term investing made simple
Click on the Forum name to visit us

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#5 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 1:45 PM   
Lowell Herr
 
From  Lowell Herr  Posts 9381  Last Nov-20
To  NancyC, Admin      [Msg # 28277.5 Message 28277.5 replying to 28277.4 28277.4 ]    
Maybe it will help me remember which is offense and which is defense.
Nancy,

My simple view of Offense and Defense goes as follows.  The raw data, without my judgments, will trigger Defense alerts within Toolkit 5 if fundamentals are showing weakness.  After completing and updating my SSG analysis, if a stock is not meeting my Thresholds as set within Toolkit 5, then an Offense alert will be triggered.  If this is too simple, someone please correct me.

Lowell

http://www.users.qwest.net/~herrlowellgrace/index.html
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#6 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 2:08 PM   
Dan Hess
 
From  Dan Hess  Posts 4718  Last Nov-20
To  NancyC, Admin      [Msg # 28277.6 Message 28277.6 replying to 28277.4 28277.4 ]    

Nancy

"I especially like the gardening analogy because both gardening and stock investing are concerned with growth. (Football fans, however, may prefer Ellis’ analogy of defense and offense.) "

Now I know why I have so much trouble with the offense and defense analogy - I am not a football fan.  The only football games I like are those which the University of Texas play.  Thus, I never remember which is the offensive or defensive portfolio management.  My husband is the gardener, but I enjoy cooking and eating the fruits of his labor, so I guess I prefer the gardening analogy.  I'm glad you tied the two approaches together.  Maybe it will help me remember which is offense and which is defense

I admit to being a football fan but I also admit to being confused for a long time related to the offensive and defensive designations used by Ellis.  My confusion was finally cleared up when reading how George Nicholson used these terms and their source.  George was a football player for Michigan in addition to being the father of the NAIC methodology.  His football coach impressed upon him that to win you needed both a strong defense and a long scoring play. The defensive side was fulfilled via the Upside Downside ratio to avoid the big losses (opponents scoring points) while the offensive part was fulfilled via the expected doubling in value in 5 years or what we now call the expected total return. 

Thus the defensive part of PM pertains to the early identification of stocks that are not performing as expected and need to be replaced.  i.e. Admit either your or the companies mistakes early before great damage can occur that is like defense since if the other team scores a lot of points it is hard to overcome.)  The offensive part comes in play when one's portfolio based upon one's personal analysis is expected to have a return of less than 15% (not expected to double in 5 years).  Thus this is the "long scoring" play to score points.

I also admit the Weeding and Feeding analogy, I first heard from Phil Keating about 15 years ago, made a lot of sense but I never quite made the direct connection to portfolio management.  

My thanks to Gary for presenting this topic that I consider one of the two most important parts of the NAIC methodology, with the other being the identification of quality growth companies to purchase.   I especially like the broader view Gary takes on PM that causes me to think a little out of the box.  Thus I look  forward to learning from this workshop.

Dan Hess

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#7 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 2:18 PM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 721  Last Nov-18
To  Carl Fisher      [Msg # 28277.7 Message 28277.7 replying to 28277.3 28277.3 ]    

Is this workshop going to focus only on the stock portion of an investment portfolio or can NAIC tools be used to manage one with more than stocks?

Carl Fisher

Hi Carl ,and thanks for the question.

This workshop will deal only with managing stocks in accordance to NAIC guidelines.

I've had a lot of individual pieces of NAIC methodology and finally decided to put them all together. With the help of many folks on the I-Club-List and here on the CompuServe Forum I hope to share my findings.

NAIC does have an excellent manual on Mutual Funds that covers analysis and management of both stock and bond mutual funds.

In addition, NAIC Personal Record Keeper will help you manage all types of investments. I'd refer you to Matt Wilms for further questions on PRK.

 


 

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, NAIC
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#8 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 2:25 PM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 721  Last Nov-18
To  NancyC, Admin      [Msg # 28277.8 Message 28277.8 replying to 28277.4 28277.4 ]    

Nancy wrote:

Maybe it will help me remember which is offense and which is defense.

Gary replied:

Ellis wants to keep portfolio management simple and I agree completely.

Defense - FUNDAMENTALS - Sales, Pre-tax Profit, EPS, and Pre-tax Profit Margin.

Offense - VALUATION - Is the stock overvalued? Can you find a stock of equal or greater quality and greater return potential?

Ellis says Defense is the most important. Watch tose fundamentals.

 

 

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, NAIC
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#9 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 2:44 PM   
Dan Hess
 
From  Dan Hess  Posts 4718  Last Nov-20
To  Gary Simms      [Msg # 28277.9 Message 28277.9 replying to 28277.7 28277.7 ]    

In addition, NAIC Personal Record Keeper will help you manage all types of investments. I'd refer you to Matt Wilms for further questions on PRK.

To help my simple brain understand I like to differentiate between portfolio tracking and portfolio management.  I view portfolio tracking as keeping track of history and how well a portfolio has done. i.e My bragging rights for use in cocktail parties or other unimportant events. (bg)  PRK provides such an excellent  tracking capability.    I like to think of portfolio management as keeping track of how well a portfolio will perform in the future.  Thus a program like Toolkit provides this type of activity of course with a suitable methodology such as defined by Gary.

While I know I will likely upset JimThomas, Lowell and Rip,  I view portfolio management to be of much greater importance than portfolio tracking.  With this breakdown, If you take care of portfolio management then portfolio tracking will also come out positive.

Dan Hess

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#10 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 3:02 PM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 721  Last Nov-18
To  Dan Hess      [Msg # 28277.10 Message 28277.10 replying to 28277.6 28277.6 ]    

Dan wrote:

My thanks to Gary for presenting this topic that I consider one of the two most important parts of the NAIC methodology, with the other being the identification of quality growth companies to purchase. 

Gary Replied:

I really only see one part to the process: Buying the highest quality growth companies at a reasonable price. We do that initally throught the SSG and SCG. Later we just monitor that quality. We can use the SSG or the PERT reports, but you're doing the same thing in a different way.

Joe Craig said: There is only one set of data, just different ways to look at it. (with the different forms and graphs.)

I think we should be giving an overview class on the NAIC "Big Picture" right after Ellis Traub's Power Point on "Why Investing Our Way Works."

We shoulld immediately provide an overview of the entire stock selection - monitoring - replacement process. Then we can produce modules to expand on the individual pieces.

And NAIC has. Look at the great classes on the SSG, SCG, PERT,  & Challenger, not to mention BINC classes on quality, evaluting historical growth, and your article's common sense ideas on forecasting realistic future growth.

 

 

 

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, NAIC
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#11 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 3:15 PM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 721  Last Nov-18
To  Dan Hess      [Msg # 28277.11 Message 28277.11 replying to 28277.9 28277.9 ]    

 

Dan wrote:

 I view portfolio tracking as keeping track of history and how well a portfolio has done. (snip) PRK provides such an excellent  tracking capability.    I like to think of portfolio management as keeping track of how well a portfolio will perform in the future. 

Gary replied:

I think people become portfolio trackers because they have not been shown the complete NAIC system of portfolio management. At least that was my reason.

My first class 10 years ago took 12 hours to walk me through a SSG. I wish I'd had the whole NAIC picture laid out for me before I started that class.

It was like taking a trip without knowing where I wanted to go.

Thant's why I added planning to the method. Before I start a portfolio I know where I want to go, and how I'm going to do it.

 

 

 

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, NAIC
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#12 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 3:15 PM   
Lowell Herr
 
From  Lowell Herr  Posts 9381  Last Nov-20
To  Dan Hess      [Msg # 28277.12 Message 28277.12 replying to 28277.9 28277.9 ]    
While I know I will likely upset JimThomas, Lowell and Rip,  I view portfolio management to be of much greater importance than portfolio tracking.  With this breakdown, If you take care of portfolio management then portfolio tracking will also come out positive.

Dan,

You will not upset me with your conclusion as to the importance of portfolio management.  I might even elevate portfolio management to the top spot -- above stock selection -- particularly if asset allocation can be considered part of portfolio management. (g)

Portfolio tracking is only there as a mechanism to see if I'm adding value to the performance based on my Portfolio Management and Stock Selection/Asset Allocation decisions.

Like you, I'm pleased Gary is running this workshop as this area of investing needs special attention if one is to be successful.

Lowell
http://www.users.qwest.net/~herrlowellgrace/index.html
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#13 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 3:38 PM   
Lowell Herr
 
From  Lowell Herr  Posts 9381  Last Nov-20
To  Dan Hess      [Msg # 28277.13 Message 28277.13 replying to 28277.6 28277.6 ]    
Thus the defensive part of PM pertains to the early identification of stocks that are not performing as expected and need to be replaced.

Gary, Dan et. al.,

If a defensive stock alert shows up using Toolkit 5, what steps do you walk through to come up with a Hold or Sell decision?  Do you check the percentage declines for the stock and compare it with industry action?  Is it an automatic sell?  Are there thresholds of decline that trigger a sell?  Is there a lot of qualitative thinking that enters into a sell decision.

Lowell

http://www.users.qwest.net/~herrlowellgrace/index.html
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#14 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 5:53 PM   
Jim Thomas
 
From  Jim Thomas  Posts 1762  Last Nov-18
To  Dan Hess      [Msg # 28277.14 Message 28277.14 replying to 28277.9 28277.9 ]    

> While I know I will likely upset JimThomas, Lowell and Rip,  I view portfolio management to be of much greater importance than portfolio tracking. <

I have no problem with that!  The primary purpose of portfolio tracking for most people is to deal with tax issues and for "bragging rights".  Portfolio management (not tracking) is what will produce results in the future.  I think portfolio management should get as much teaching and learning focus as the SSG.

My "issue" about portfolio tracking (specifically with portfolio performance) is that doing it wrong (or not knowing whether you're doing it right or wrong) can be worse than not doing it at all.

 

-Jim Thomas
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#15 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 6:23 PM   
NancyC, Admin
 
From  NancyC, Admin  Posts 10143  Last Jun-9
To  Gary Simms      [Msg # 28277.15 Message 28277.15 replying to 28277.8 28277.8 ]    
"Defense - FUNDAMENTALS - Sales, Pre-tax Profit, EPS, and Pre-tax Profit Margin.

Offense - VALUATION - Is the stock overvalued? Can you find a stock of equal or greater quality and greater return potential?"
I had to memorize them.  Those terms' meanings are not intuitive to me whereas I immediately understand the gardening terms without thinking.

Nancy Crays
NAIC Forum - Long term investing made simple
Click on the Forum name to visit us

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Message 28277.16 was deleted

#17 of 147

     Posted 1/9/05 11:47 PM   
wmbiedenstein
 
From  wmbiedenstein  Posts 95  Last 3/24/08
To  Gary Simms      [Msg # 28277.17 Message 28277.17 replying to 28277.2 28277.2 ]    

I’ve added one more step to the gardening analogy so I have five parts to my “big picture” of PM

     1.  Planning – set your goals in writing

     2. Planting – pick your stocks Weeding or Defense - get rid of the losers

     3. Feeding – take care of the healthy and care for the sick

     4. Pruning or Offense – trimming back overgrown stocks

Gary, this is an area where I admittedly have alot to learn, so I plan to be a steady reader of this workshop.  You have me curious-- what is the fifth step that you are adding?

Bill Biedenstein

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#18 of 147

     Posted 1/10/05 2:55 AM   
Brian Lewis
 
From  Brian Lewis  Posts 299  Last 2/28/06
To  All      [Msg # 28277.18 Message 28277.18 replying to 28277.15 28277.15 ]    
"Defense - FUNDAMENTALS - Sales, Pre-tax Profit, EPS, and Pre-tax Profit Margin.

Offense - VALUATION - Is the stock overvalued? Can you find a stock of equal or greater quality and greater return potential?"

I'm a huge fan of Ellis's offense/defense analogy, though I understand Nancy's point about it not being intuitive to everyone.  Still, I don't think you have to be a sports fan to understand the idea of defense and offense (? maybe I think that way because I'm male ... <g>).

I think there's pretty good consensus about what the offensive side entails, i.e., when the total return that you anticipate from a stock is pretty low, you look round for a replacement stock --- one that will maintain the overall quality level, maintain or improve balance/diversification, and has a substantially better total return at current price.

There is less consensus, I think, on what defensive portfolio management is.  For me it boils down to not owning lousy stocks.   TK5 is too much "number driven" for my taste on this, i.e., focused on PERT-A trends.  For me, defense is about owning quality growth stocks.   PERT-A trends can give us clues as to whether the growth or even the quality are breaking down, but I want more than just clues --- I want to go about measuring it more directly if I can. 

So for stocks that I actually own, that includes a combination of some sort of quality rating number or letter, and just an overall good knowledge of the company (and its management, its industry and competitors, etc).   For stocks that I don't own, I lean on the quality metric and other metrics (balance sheet stuff, whatever) a bit more, but again --- not just on PERT-A trends.

I think that Portfolio Management is the area in NAIC where there's the least consensus.   To anyone that's still forming their process, or even open to reevaluating their process --- I'd encourage that you listen to as many of the various approaches and ideas that you can stand to <g>, then form your own approach from the ideas that make the most sense to you. 

Then you can throw out your own unique approach and try to evangelize and convince everyone that you have the one and only true vision!  <bg>     A good way to do that sort of evangelization might be creating your own web page for it ...

Brian Lewis
President, Puget Sound Chapter NAIC
Director, NIA Advisory Board
http://www.nwlink.com/~brianle/

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#19 of 147

     Posted 1/10/05 6:19 AM   
NancyC, Admin
 
From  NancyC, Admin  Posts 10143  Last Jun-9
To  Brian Lewis      [Msg # 28277.19 Message 28277.19 replying to 28277.18 28277.18 ]    (Unread)
" There is less consensus, I think, on what defensive portfolio management is.  For me it boils down to not owning lousy stocks....  For me, defense is about owning quality growth stocks....  So for stocks that I actually own, that includes a combination of some sort of quality rating number or letter, and just an overall good knowledge of the company (and its management, its industry and competitors, etc).  "
Same for me.  It's good to see I'm not the only  one who thinks this way.

Nancy Crays
NAIC Forum - Long term investing made simple
Click on the Forum name to visit us

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#20 of 147

     Posted 1/10/05 6:53 AM   
Lowell Herr
 
From  Lowell Herr  Posts 9381  Last Nov-20
To  Brian Lewis      [Msg # 28277.20 Message 28277.20 replying to 28277.18 28277.18 ]    (Unread)
For me, defense is about owning quality growth stocks.   PERT-A trends can give us clues as to whether the growth or even the quality are breaking down, but I want more than just clues --- I want to go about measuring it more directly if I can. 
Brian,

Mark Robertson's RQR rating system has done a great deal to bring quality to the attention of investor thinking.  So has the quality rating system developed within the original Take $tock software.  In addition to these two, I use MSN's valuation system found at this location.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/srs/srsmain.asp?Symbol=mxim

Maxim Integrated Products is the example given since it is under discussion elsewhere on this Forum.

I definitely agree with your statement that one needs to focus on owning quality growth stocks.  We likely differ from each other on what is meant by quality but I try to show what I mean in the "Creme List."  Even so, there are times when a stock will crop up on that list and I need to look into what caused it to emerge.

Lowell

http://www.users.qwest.net/~herrlowellgrace/index.html
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#21 of 147

     Posted 1/10/05 8:09 AM   
Gary Simms
 
From  Gary Simms  Posts 721  Last Nov-18
To  wmbiedenstein      [Msg # 28277.21 Message 28277.21 replying to 28277.17 28277.17 ]    

Gary, this is an area where I admittedly have alot to learn, so I plan to be a steady reader of this workshop.  You have me curious-- what is the fifth step that you are adding?

Bill Biedenstein

Hi Bill,

I added "Planning." The one you've left out is 'Weeding."

Brian Lewis advised that everyones plan and system will be different so please use whatever works best for you.

 

 

 

Gary Simms, Heart of Illinois Chapter, NAIC
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