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Christianity

When Atheists Believe

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#1 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 12:46 AM   
Bishop10435
 
From  Bishop10435  Posts 9155  Last 5:20 PM
To  All      [Msg # 168371.1 ]    

Christianity Today magazine has an interesting article "When Atheists Believe"--The confounding attraction of the Christian worldview.

http:www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/october/33.58.html

Sir Antony Flew caught a lot of attention when he concluded that atheism is not logically sustainable. He said he had to go where the evidence led and that evolutionary theory had no reasonable explanation for the origin of life.

Recently, A.N.Wilson who spent years mocking Christianity has returned to the faith. He said the reason was that atheists are "missing out on some very basic experiences of life. He observed that people who say we are "simply anthropoid apes" cannot account for things as basic as language, love, and music."

Matthew Parris, well known British atheist, visited Christian aid workers in Malawi and what he saw was the transforming power of the gospel. He wrote, "It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my worldview, and has embarassed my growing belief that there is no God."The author of the articled added, "While Parris is unwilling to follow where his observations lead, he is obviously wrestling with how Christianity makes better sense of the world than other worldviews."

The author of the article said, "While we can't reason our way to God, I've long believed that Christianity is the most rational explanation of reality."

What think ye?

 

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#2 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 1:02 AM   
CalS (Staff)
 
From  CalS (Staff)  Posts 8035  Last 11:46 AM
To  Bishop10435      [Msg # 168371.2 Message 168371.2 replying to 168371.1 168371.1 ]    
>> Matthew Parris, well known British atheist, visited Christian aid workers in Malawi and what he saw was the transforming power of the gospel. He wrote, "It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my worldview, and has embarassed my growing belief that there is no God."The author of the articled added, "While Parris is unwilling to follow where his observations lead, he is obviously wrestling with how Christianity makes better sense of the world than other worldviews."<<

Of course, if he'd visited Evangelical Christian churches in Nigeria, he'd quite possibly have seen preachers advocating the torture and killing of children for being witches.

And the sponsoring organizations seem to be doing nothing at all to rein them in.

It's all in what you see.

--Cal
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#3 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 1:21 AM   
Bishop10435
 
From  Bishop10435  Posts 9155  Last 5:20 PM
To  CalS (Staff)      [Msg # 168371.3 Message 168371.3 replying to 168371.2 168371.2 ]    

And the sponsoring organizations seem to be doing nothing at all to rein them in>>>>

Can you give me the names of any American Evangelical organizations who are sponsoring any such conduct and who have any authority to rein it in?

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#4 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 2:05 AM   
CalS (Staff)
 
From  CalS (Staff)  Posts 8035  Last 11:46 AM
To  Bishop10435      [Msg # 168371.4 Message 168371.4 replying to 168371.3 168371.3 ]    

CS>>And the sponsoring organizations seem to be doing nothing at all to rein them in>>>>

B>> Can you give me the names of any American Evangelical organizations who are sponsoring any such conduct and who have any authority to rein it in?

No. But I know that you've said that Evangelical churches sponsor missions and outreach in Nigeria. And I know that it's Evangelical churches in Nigeria which murder and maim kids for being witches. It's not a large leap to make, that some of those sponsoring organizations are not keeping track of what their daughter churches are doing.

Certainly, I've never seen any evidence of any Evangelical churches in America doing anything about the witch hunting in Nigeria. Indeed, Sarah Palin was prayed over by a witch hunting preacher, to much acclaim among the Evangelical population here. Can you provide any such evidence of Evangelical churches working to stop witch hunting?

--Cal
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#5 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 9:38 AM   
Mark Mc
 
From  Mark Mc  Posts 11599  Last 7:30 AM
To  Bishop10435      [Msg # 168371.5 Message 168371.5 replying to 168371.1 168371.1 ]    
>>>Sir Antony Flew caught a lot of attention when he concluded that atheism is not logically sustainable.<<<

"When asked in December 2004 by Duncan Crary of Humanist Network News if he still stood by the argument presented in The Presumption of Atheism, Flew replied he did but he also restated his position as deist: "I'm quite happy to believe in an inoffensive inactive god".

SOURCE

While Flew has possibly decided he's now open to deism, he's still  a long way from Christianity - and evangelical Christianity in particular.  I didn't bother much with A. N. Wilson.  I imagine that quote is as honest as that offered for Flew.

>>>What think ye?<<<

That at least some evangelical Christians use the dubious methods of commercial advertisers in their propaganda. 



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#6 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 9:45 AM   
Loren
 
From  Loren  Posts 5057  Last 7:27 AM
To  Mark Mc      [Msg # 168371.6 Message 168371.6 replying to 168371.5 168371.5 ]    
Mark,

That at least some evangelical Christians use the dubious methods of commercial advertisers in their propaganda. 

You're so nice. :)  I'd just say they're lying.

Loren

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#7 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 9:53 AM   
Mark Mc
 
From  Mark Mc  Posts 11599  Last 7:30 AM
To  Loren      [Msg # 168371.7 Message 168371.7 replying to 168371.6 168371.6 ]    
>>>You're so nice. :)  I'd just say they're lying.<<<

:)  How 'bout intentionally misleading?

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#8 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 10:19 AM   
George A
 
From  George A  Posts 10194  Last 10:36 AM
To  Mark Mc      [Msg # 168371.8 Message 168371.8 replying to 168371.7 168371.7 ]    
>>)  How 'bout intentionally misleading?<<

Lying through their teeth is more to the point.<g>


The method of "postulating" what we want has many advantages; 
they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil.

Bertrand Russell


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#9 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 11:03 AM   
Mark Mc
 
From  Mark Mc  Posts 11599  Last 7:30 AM
To  George A      [Msg # 168371.9 Message 168371.9 replying to 168371.8 168371.8 ]    
>>>Lying through their teeth is more to the point.<g><<<

Well, if you're going to be completely direct, the phrase "full of it" comes to mind.  :)  The point is, that Flew is allowing for a philosophical argument to be made.  Not a theological one, and certainly nothing resembling an evangelical saying of the sinners prayer.  Which is what they're probably hoping their intentionally vague claims will lead the reader to surmise. 

Stupid marketing tricks.

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#10 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 11:28 AM   
Véronique
 
From  Véronique  Posts 3555  Last 3:30 PM
To  Bishop10435      [Msg # 168371.10 Message 168371.10 replying to 168371.1 168371.1 ]    
>> What think ye? <<

Very weak article.  I expect better from Christianity Today.

~ Véronique
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#11 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 1:28 PM   
Joyce G.
 
From  Joyce G.  Posts 646  Last Nov-16
To  Véronique      [Msg # 168371.11 Message 168371.11 replying to 168371.10 168371.10 ]    

Very weak article.  I expect better from Christianity Today.

~ Véronique

Really? And just what would that be? Would anything better impress you regardless? 

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#12 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 1:43 PM   
George A
 
From  George A  Posts 10194  Last 10:36 AM
To  Mark Mc      [Msg # 168371.12 Message 168371.12 replying to 168371.9 168371.9 ]    
>>Stupid marketing tricks.<<

Hey, if that's all you have, and you have excellent reason to believe that at least some people will fall for your stupid marketing tricks, you go with what you've got.<g>

You might say that's the basis of modern evangelism.  One stupid marketing trick after another.

Social psychologists distinguish between two approaches to persuasion.  The central route is one of reasoned persuasion, providing factual information and logical argument.  The peripheral route persuades through emotional appeal and the fact that irrationality has its attractive side to most people.

Guess which one evangelists use exclusively?<g>

Even when they claim to be using the central route, it's easily seen to be false. 

Either the facts are wrong, carefully selected or otherwise distorted, whether by omission or commission, or, bogus "logic" is used.  See the list of fallacious arguments for that. 

As you've noted already today, begging the question seems to be the most popular.<g>


The method of "postulating" what we want has many advantages; 
they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil.

Bertrand Russell


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#13 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 4:21 PM   
Mark Mc
 
From  Mark Mc  Posts 11599  Last 7:30 AM
To  George A      [Msg # 168371.13 Message 168371.13 replying to 168371.12 168371.12 ]    
>>>Social psychologists distinguish between two approaches to persuasion.  The central route is one of reasoned persuasion, providing factual information and logical argument.  The peripheral route persuades through emotional appeal and the fact that irrationality has its attractive side to most people.

Guess which one evangelists use exclusively?<g><<<

From what I've seen ad infinitum, it's the appeal to emotion route bypassing as much deductive logic as they hope they can get away with.

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#14 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 4:41 PM   
George A
 
From  George A  Posts 10194  Last 10:36 AM
To  Mark Mc      [Msg # 168371.14 Message 168371.14 replying to 168371.13 168371.13 ]    
>>>Guess which one evangelists use exclusively?<g><<<

>>From what I've seen ad infinitum, it's the appeal to emotion route bypassing as much deductive logic as they hope they can get away with.<<

Probably happens in their madra, uh, "seminaries" where rote memorization is encouraged.  Now, the RCs educate their priests, and they understand deductive logic quite well.   Which is probably why they don't do evangelizing.<g>


The method of "postulating" what we want has many advantages; 
they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil.

Bertrand Russell


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#15 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 5:00 PM   
Mark Mc
 
From  Mark Mc  Posts 11599  Last 7:30 AM
To  George A      [Msg # 168371.15 Message 168371.15 replying to 168371.14 168371.14 ]    
>>>Which is probably why they don't do evangelizing.<g><<<

Not the in you face stuff, no.  But how many opportunities to make others feel guilty (especially about giving money) or to mention Christ and his sacrifice have you noticed a priest avoiding?

It may be in the passive voice, but it's not all that far from the surface.  :)



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#16 of 300

     Posted Oct-28 8:37 PM   
Véronique
 
From  Véronique  Posts 3555  Last 3:30 PM
To  Joyce G.      [Msg # 168371.16 Message 168371.16 replying to 168371.11 168371.11 ]    (Unread)
>> Really? And just what would that be? Would anything better impress you regardless? <<

Would anything impress me?  Yes.  A well-argued piece supporting the assertions Colson makes.  That's more what I expect from Christianity Today.  This piece is short, to be sure, but it also says very little.

You seem to be making assumptions about me without knowing me.

~ Véronique
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#17 of 300

     Posted Oct-29 12:33 AM   
Bishop10435
 
From  Bishop10435  Posts 9155  Last 5:20 PM
To  All      [Msg # 168371.17 Message 168371.17 replying to 168371.1 168371.1 ]    

Do we have any posters in the Religion Forum who will discuss civilly and respectfully the article in question? I don't have much time to be in the forum--mostly late at night after a busy day. I am not interested at all in mud slinging and denigrating anybody.

Let me try one more time. Sir Antony Flew, a well known defender of atheism, said that while he had not come to believe in the Biblical God, he had concluded that atheism is not logically sustainable. Please note that neither I nor the writer of the article in Christianity Today has said that Antony Flew became a Christian. Nobdody has said that. But he did say he had to go "Where the evidence led." He said, Evolutionary theory has no reasonable explanationfor the origin of life."

A.N. Wilson who spent years mocking Christianity came back to the faith and said that listening to Bach and reading the works of religious authors, he realized that their worldview or "perception of life was deeper, wiser, and more rounded than my own." He said that people who insist we are simply anthropoid apes cannot account for things as basic as language, love, and music.

Would anyone like to discuss these statements by Dr. Flew and Mr. Wilson--in a civil respectful discussion? Why do you agree or disagree with what they said?If so, then I would like to see us have an intelligent, adult discussion that perhaps could lead us into the arguments for atheism and the arguments for theism. That might include discussion about the existence of evil, The Random Universe or the Orderly universe, Purpose or Purposelessness of life, etc.

I think this could be a very good thread if we can disagree agreeably and give our best reasons  and arguments for our positions. If we can't have a civil discussion here, then I will leave and try to have the discussion in another forum. But I would like to have the discussion here.

 

 

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#18 of 300

     Posted Oct-29 1:21 AM   
Véronique
 
From  Véronique  Posts 3555  Last 3:30 PM
To  Bishop10435      [Msg # 168371.18 Message 168371.18 replying to 168371.17 168371.17 ]    
>> Sir Antony Flew, a well known defender of atheism, said that while he had not come to believe in the Biblical God, he had concluded that atheism is not logically sustainable. <<

But we have no idea why he has come to such a conclusion.  I don't think deities are an impossibility, but thus far I see no evidence for any.  I knowledge that my own Goddess is a creation of my imagination.  This make me think that perhaps everyone's deity (of those who have one) is a creation of imagination.  I know from my own experience just how powerful imagination can be.

>> But he did say he had to go "Where the evidence led." <<

And that's where I say I go -- where the evidence leads.  Again, we have no explanation from Flew for what he is quoted as saying.

>> He said, Evolutionary theory has no reasonable explanationfor the origin of life." <<

As has been explained more times than I care to remember (and I tend to set most threads about evolution on "ignore," so I'm sure I've missed some), the Theory of Evolution does not address the origin of life.  Such a thing is outside the theory.  The Theory of Evolution only addresses the diversification of life, not its origin.  If Flew really said such a thing, shame on him.

>> A.N. Wilson who spent years mocking Christianity came back to the faith and said that listening to Bach and reading the works of religious authors, he realized that their worldview or "perception of life was deeper, wiser, and more rounded than my own." He said that people who insist we are simply anthropoid apes cannot account for things as basic as language, love, and music. <<

Again, I listen to Bach and I've read plenty of works by religious authors.  My conclusion is completely different.  My perception of life is no less deep, wise, or rounded than those of the religious writers that I've read.  And I find that natural selection indeed accounts for things such as language, love, and music.  Another Wilson, Edward O., makes a strong case for the natural origins even of the arts.

>> Why do you agree or disagree with what they said? <<

I disagree because my own experience leads me to different conclusions.  I don't have an argument for atheism.  I simply lack any belief in a deity outside my own imagination (she is quite sufficient for my needs).  I make no case for atheism.  I simply don't see a good case for theism.  The article presented unsupported quotes and assertions.  It was too short to make a logical argument for either theism or Christianity, or perhaps the authors are not the right people to make such arguments.  So it's not a particularly useful starting point.

~ Véronique
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#19 of 300

     Posted Oct-29 1:43 AM   
Zivatar
 
From  Zivatar  Posts 964  Last 10:56 AM
To  Véronique      [Msg # 168371.19 Message 168371.19 replying to 168371.18 168371.18 ]    
>And that's where I say I go -- where the evidence leads.  Again, we have no explanation from Flew for what he is quoted as saying.<

If you follow the links in the Colson piece you'll come across a much better explanation.  Colson's article is sloppy at best, and verges on misrepresenting Flew if it doesn't actually cross the line.

>I knowledge that my own Goddess is a creation of my imagination.  This make me think that perhaps everyone's deity (of those who have one) is a creation of imagination.  I know from my own experience just how powerful imagination can be.

* * *

I don't have an argument for atheism.  I simply lack any belief in a deity outside my own imagination (she is quite sufficient for my needs).<

This strikes me as quite loopy.  Might you explain yourself?
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#20 of 300

     Posted Oct-29 7:31 AM   
Mark Mc
 
From  Mark Mc  Posts 11599  Last 7:30 AM
To  Bishop10435      [Msg # 168371.20 Message 168371.20 replying to 168371.17 168371.17 ]    
>>>Nobdody has said that.<<<

We know nobody has said that.

>>>Would anyone like to discuss these statements by Dr. Flew and Mr. Wilson--in a civil respectful discussion? <<<

What I would like to see is the original statements by each person, in context.  I would also like to see any follow up statements by each of the reported figures, that may have some explanitory function.

>>>If we can't have a civil discussion here, then I will leave and try to have the discussion in another forum.<<<

What has been written that is uncivil?



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