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The Public Square

Are Disagreements Anti-semitic?

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#1 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 9:00 AM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1689  Last Nov-20
To  Tobster E      [Msg # 168406.1 ]    
>>   Some people think that they can redefine capitalism and socialism to make it mean what they want it to.  <<

Some people also think they can be overtly antisemitic and not have anyone notice.  <s>

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#2 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 11:32 AM   
Gary Z
 
From  Gary Z  Posts 10999  Last 8:24 AM
To  Martin Alter      [Msg # 168406.2 Message 168406.2 replying to 168406.1 168406.1 ]    
Martin:
»»   Some people also think they can be overtly antisemitic and not have anyone notice.  <s>

And some are so clueless that don't even know they're being antisemitic.
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#3 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 12:40 PM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1689  Last Nov-20
To  Gary Z      [Msg # 168406.3 Message 168406.3 replying to 168406.2 168406.2 ]    
>>   And some are so clueless that don't even know they're being antisemitic.  <<

I think you're wrong.  I think they know damned well that they are anti-Jewish and they don't respect, nor do they like, the very idea that Jews have some idea of how to interpret their own literature and material.  Their fundamental premise is, in fact, that Jews don't know how to interpret their own material.  While you know that I disagree with Irv, for example, on many (perhaps even most) issues, this exchange between Kermit and Irv and Shoshana (Kermit is working two fronts here) demonstrates the arrogance of his (and quite a few Christians') attitudes toward both Jews and Judaism and he is well past whatever fine line there might be between mere defense of Christian theology and over anti-Judaism.

The attitude is beyond insulting; it is fundamentally anti-Jewish and antisemitic.  But what the typical antisemite doesn't want is to be labeled as an antisemite, just as the typical racist can always find some justification (read rationalization) for his or her attitudes.  Read Jody David Armour on this -- "Reasonable Racism."

That this exchange has been permitted to go on as long as it has simply demonstrates the basic acceptance of anti-Judaism among a very large segment of the population.
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#4 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 12:54 PM   
Patricia O. [Stàff]
 
From  Patricia O. [Stàff]  Posts 11177  Last 12:47 PM
To  Martin Alter      [Msg # 168406.4 Message 168406.4 replying to 168406.3 168406.3 ]    
>>> That this exchange has been permitted to go on as long as it has simply demonstrates the basic acceptance of anti-Judaism among a very large segment of the population. <<<
I suspect from Kermit's viewpoint, that this exchange has been permitted to go on as long as it has simply demonstrates the basic acceptance of anti-Christianity as well.

In reality, this exchange has been allowed to continue because this Forum is intended to be a place to post one's opinions, as long as one stays within the rules.
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Messages 168406.5 through 168406.6 were moved to 168439.1

#7 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 1:18 PM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1689  Last Nov-20
To  Patricia O. [Stàff]      [Msg # 168406.7 Message 168406.7 replying to 168406.4 168406.4 ]    
>>   I suspect from Kermit's viewpoint, that this exchange has been permitted to go on as long as it has simply demonstrates the basic acceptance of anti-Christianity as well.  <<

I'm not surprised you'd take this view.  Obviously you're missed the major point -- that no one is telling Kermit that he doesn't understand his own theology.  He's been told that he's demonstrated, repeatedly, that he doesn't understand ours.


{Personal comments removed.}

Edited Nov-6   by  Patricia O. [Stàff]
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#8 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 1:27 PM   
Patricia O. [Stàff]
 
From  Patricia O. [Stàff]  Posts 11177  Last 12:47 PM
To  Martin Alter      [Msg # 168406.8 Message 168406.8 replying to 168406.7 168406.7 ]    
>>> Obviously you're missed the major point -- that no one is telling Kermit that he doesn't understand his own theology. <<<
It is ever thus when a new religion is created on top of an older one.  Christians have reinterpreted Jewish scripture.  Muslims have reinterpreted both Jewish and Christian scripture.  Etc, etc.

The newer believers think the older believers were wrong, and the older believers think the newer believers are irrelevant at best.


>>> He's been told that he's demonstrated, repeatedly, that he doesn't understand ours. <<<
And he doesn't care, anymore than you care about understanding his.

And from the viewpoint of an atheist, it's just a silly pissing contest about non-existent god(s).
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#9 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 2:01 PM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1689  Last Nov-20
To  Patricia O. [Stàff]      [Msg # 168406.9 Message 168406.9 replying to 168406.8 168406.8 ]    
>>   It is ever thus when a new religion is created on top of an older one.  Christians have reinterpreted Jewish scripture.   <<

Wrong.  It is not "ever thus."  We are not telling Kermit that he doesn't know how to interpret Christian theology (although I suspect Bishop John Shelby Spong will have no qualms in telling him that in no uncertain terms).  We are telling him that he is arrogantly and insultingly telling Jews that we do not know how to interpret our own material.  That's one very big difference.

>>  
The newer believers think the older believers were wrong, and the older believers think the newer believers are irrelevant at best.  <<

Again, you miss the point.  It's not a matter of believing that others are wrong.  I allow that perhaps the Buddhists are correct; or any other sect, for that matter.  What Jews don't do is tell them that they don't understand their own material.


{Edited by Staff for personal comments.}


Edited Nov-6   by  Patricia O. [Stàff]
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#10 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 2:22 PM   
Patricia O. [Stàff]
 
From  Patricia O. [Stàff]  Posts 11177  Last 12:47 PM
To  Martin Alter      [Msg # 168406.10 Message 168406.10 replying to 168406.9 168406.9 ]    
>>> We are telling him that he is arrogantly and insultingly telling Jews that we do not know how to interpret our own material.  That's one very big difference. <<<
From your perspective, certainly.   From the perspective of a conservative Christian, you're being just as insulting.

>>> Again, you miss the point. <<<
No, I don't.   I just disagree that only your side has a point.
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Message 168406.11 was moved to 168439.3

#12 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 3:06 PM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1689  Last Nov-20
To  Patricia O. [Stàff]      [Msg # 168406.12 Message 168406.12 replying to 168406.10 168406.10 ]    
>>   From the perspective of a conservative Christian, you're being just as insulting.  <<

Again, missing the point.  I'll give you credit for consistency, however.

By the way, when did you become the spokesperson for what you call conservative Christians?  I'm quite sure they're delighted with your representation.  <s>

>>  
I just disagree that only your side has a point.  <<

Breathtaking intellectual dishonesty, since I never said this.  But, once more, unsurprising.

We're done.
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#13 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 3:17 PM   
Patricia O. [Stàff]
 
From  Patricia O. [Stàff]  Posts 11177  Last 12:47 PM
To  Martin Alter      [Msg # 168406.13 Message 168406.13 replying to 168406.12 168406.12 ]    
>>> Again, missing the point.  <<<
As you have appeared to miss mine.
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#14 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 3:24 PM   
Martin Alter
 
From  Martin Alter  Posts 1689  Last Nov-20
To  Patricia O. [Stàff]      [Msg # 168406.14 Message 168406.14 replying to 168406.13 168406.13 ]    
I do notice, however, the rather self-serving and very silly name of this thread.  Include me out.
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#15 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 3:26 PM   
wakeupamerika
 
From  wakeupamerika  Posts 1521  Last 3:52 AM
To  Patricia O. [Stàff]      [Msg # 168406.15 Message 168406.15 replying to 168406.13 168406.13 ]    

As you have appeared to miss mine. <<<

 

Ummmm...he said "we're done".  He may reply you missed his point. But, then he'd be making himself a liar if he replies. Or maybe not, since the original point is not what is being said this time. OKAY...I've got it worked out in my wee peebrain...I'm done....LOL


~ noel
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#16 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 3:42 PM   
Zivatar
 
From  Zivatar  Posts 964  Last 10:56 AM
To  Patricia O. [Stàff]      [Msg # 168406.16 Message 168406.16 replying to 168406.13 168406.13 ]    
>As you have appeared to miss mine.<

I hadn't noticed the thread title until Alter whined about it in the message below.  Well done. <g>
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Message 168406.17 was moved to 168439.4

#18 of 48

     Posted Nov-6 4:49 PM   
Gary Z
 
From  Gary Z  Posts 10999  Last 8:24 AM
To  Martin Alter      [Msg # 168406.18 Message 168406.18 replying to 168406.3 168406.3 ]    
Martin:
»»Me:    And some are so clueless that don't even know they're being antisemitic.

»»You:   I think you're wrong.  I think they know damned well that they are anti-Jewish and they don't respect, nor do they like, the very idea that Jews have some idea of how to interpret their own literature and material.  Their fundamental premise is, in fact, that Jews don't know how to interpret their own material.  While you know that I disagree with Irv, for example, on many (perhaps even most) issues, this exchange between Kermit and Irv and Shoshana (Kermit is working two fronts here) demonstrates the arrogance of his (and quite a few Christians') attitudes toward both Jews and Judaism and he is well past whatever fine line there might be between mere defense of Christian theology and over anti-Judaism.

If I had grown up with your perspective, I can imagine that I'd be in complete agreement with you.  But I didn't grow up with that perspective.

As far as Judaism, I grew up quite naive.  By the time I graduated from high school, I had lived in small towns in the states of Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Kansas.  I am unaware of any Jew in any class through high school graduation.  The only Jew I knew was a friend of my father's who ran a clothing store in the small town in Oklahoma where my paternal grandparents lived.  I never had a theological discussion with him and, in fact, thought it was really neat that he was a Jew like Jesus.

Until my participation in this forum, I was almost totally ignorant of what Judaism teaches.  It was here that I learned that the picture of Judaism contained in the New Testament was most likely a grand distortion.  I also learned to respect the Old Testament a great deal more than I had before.

The prolonged discussion I had here about penal substitutionary atonement was a real eye opener for me.  I learned just how distorted the picture of Judaism was on which the doctrine was built.  As I tried to learn what else I had been misled about, I also learned what some of the hot points are between the two religions.

And so I ask that you understand and perhaps forgive our ignorance but remain hostile to willful stupidity.
»»   That this exchange has been permitted to go on as long as it has simply demonstrates the basic acceptance of anti-Judaism among a very large segment of the population.

No, I've been for letting it go on in hopes that it will serve as a way for more Christians like myself to learn about Judaism.  Ugliness needs to be exposed.  Antisemiticism needs to see the light of day and be confronted; that won't happen if it is censored.
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Messages 168406.19 through 168406.20 were moved to 168439.5
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The Public Square

Are Disagreements Anti-semitic?

  
 
     

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