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Journalism/NonFic

A Gift for Darwin: Creationism!

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#1 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 11:26 AM   
Alex Krislov / Forum Manager
 
From  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager  Posts 1505  Last 1:26 PM
To  All      [Msg # 65822.1 ]    

The works of Charles Darwin, the discoverer of evolution, are long since in the public domain.  Does that make them open territory for those who would dispute them?

Tomorrow marks the 150th anniversary of the publication of Darwin's The Origin of Species, the landmark book that brought evolutionary theory to the world.  And in "honor" of that date, a Christian group is giving out over 170,000 copies of the book -- with a new, fifty-page introduction by creationist Ray Comfort.

A press release for the book and event states:

LOS ANGELES: Over 1,200 Christians across the nation will be giving away 170,000 copies Charles Darwin’s  The Origin of Species at 100 of America’s top universities on Wednesday, November 18 in honor of the book’s 150th anniversary.  Thousands of Atheists have already expressed outrage. 

 

In fact, prominent atheist Prof. Richard Dawkins has told students to rip out the book’s introduction, which is written by best-selling author Ray Comfort.

 

Comfort will be joining actor Kirk Cameron for one of the 100 book distributions at an undisclosed Southern California university.

 

The Secular Student Alliance, an atheist youth movement, is also mobilizing student groups to counter the free distribution, according to the group’s recent press release. 

 

While a number of atheists threaten that the distribution efforts will be met with unilateral resistance, others have suggested burning the book.

 

“We're low on firewood up at the cabin,” writes Greg Laden of Science blogs. “It's not that I like burning books. But this is not burning books."

 

It's certainly legal to republish The Origin of Species with new material.  It belongs to everyone, which means, in a legal sense, that it belongs to no one.  But is it ethical?

 

And should those who oppose it really be suggesting book burning -- even as hyperbole?

 

Tell us what you think!


Alex
Books & Writers Community
Political Debate Forum
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#2 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 11:45 AM   
Margaret Campbell/Sysop
 
From  Margaret Campbell/Sysop  Posts 1092  Last 12:36 PM
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.2 Message 65822.2 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    
And for those of you who get into debates over creationism, How to Debate a Creationist.

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#3 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 12:06 PM   
rwodaski
 
From  rwodaski  Posts 2172  Last 1:20 PM
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.3 Message 65822.3 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    
I don't care much one way or the other that they reprint it. It's their right to do so. It even looks like a nice reprint physically.

The issue I think is the Introduction. So I downloaded it here and skimmed it. A few points:

* There in a reasonably objective biography of Darwin.

* There is an interesting look at Darwin's own stance toward God's existence and Christian faith. It is filled with long quotes, and is also reasonably objective for that reason.

* There then begins a silly 'analysis' of life on earth and how it 'points' to intelligent design.

The 'analysis' is deeply flawed from the very beginning. As such things often do, it starts with impressions of reality and then seeks to treat them like scientific truth. As in, well, it looks complicated, so there's no way it happened on its own. For example:

"...consider the likelihood of all the intricate, interrelated parts of [DNA] coming together by sheer chance."

Of course, that isn't what evolution is about at all. It is about the natural connections between molecules that draw them into certain arrangements (DNA, proteins, and the rest of the cellular apparatus). It's so far past sheer chance that to say it is 'sheer chance' is a massive misrepresentation.

So I did not read the introduction to its conclusion; when the very first step into the discussion is to pretend that DNA 'words' came forth out of nothing, when the reality is that there is a chemical grammar that such things follow, I have no interest.

So it just becomes sad for me that there are people who will make an argument so callously, without examining the facts.

It's unfortunate that the scientists who have studied the way that human biases create such blind spots are part and parcel of the institutions that are branded along with evolution as wrong; this inability to argue from first principles is painful to watch. To see someone set up something that is readily provable as false, and then construct an enormous edifice from it, embarrasses me on their behalf.

(What's worse is that the author of the introduction, Ray Comfort, doesn't even attempt to show that DNA and the protein machinery are random; he works completely within a trivial analogy that, by omitting things like grammar, makes not only a poor but a grossly erroneous substitute. Sigh.)

But the introduction is written in a very reassuring and confident way, as if it was actually scholarly, actually correct, actually without bias. That is what happens when you write with belief, with unexamined assumptions, without the benefit of examining first principles.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of that sort of thing going around, always has been, and always will. The only time to worry is when the folks who do that want to squelch others; in this case, it seems a rather tame attempt to persuade, and is therefore, to my eye, more sad than harmful. I think we need to remember that many people have such non-rigorous belief systems, even to the point of trying to overwrite easily provable facts. I try to be patient with that; it's not the sort of thing that appears to be very changeable.

Ron Wodaski
Dark Matters

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#4 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 1:02 PM   
Marte Brengle
 
From  Marte Brengle  Posts 1279  Last 1:34 PM
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.4 Message 65822.4 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    
I think it'd be only fair if the non-creationists took another public domain work (the Bible) and handed it out with an introduction detailing as many misconceptions, fallacies and flights of fancy as would fit on, say, 100 pages--fifty for each Testament. 

I am not in favor of book burning under any circumstances.

infmom.net

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#5 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 2:30 PM   
Dee-Ann Latona
 
From  Dee-Ann Latona  Posts 4565  Last Feb-8
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.5 Message 65822.5 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    
Their version is actually edited to remove the parts they don't like, and with a forward refuting it. Editing the book but still naming it as though it's the same book is what I find intensely unethical, to the point that I hope in some way it's illegal as it heavily misrepresents the book's contents.

It would be like some non-Christians grabbing the Bible and taking out chunks they don't like, then republishing it as though it was unchanged. Mind you different Christian sects have been doing that for centuries, but still. :P

The forward isn't my big objection, though it should be made clear on the cover that it's got a forward from anti-evolutionists. It's the huge editing of the book and passing it off as the original.

---
Dee-Ann Latona LeBlanc
http://www.freelancesurvivor.com/
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#6 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 2:36 PM   
Beth S/SL-Writing Biz
 
From  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz  Posts 10179  Last 9:15 AM
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.6 Message 65822.6 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    

Alex,

What am I missing? What's their objection to people getting free copies of the book?

~Beth

Visit The Stone River

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#7 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 3:04 PM   
Marte Brengle
 
From  Marte Brengle  Posts 1279  Last 1:34 PM
To  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz      [Msg # 65822.7 Message 65822.7 replying to 65822.6 65822.6 ]    
People aren't getting free copies of the original book.  They're getting a free copy of some bowdlerized, adulterated version put out by the creationists.

Would you like a free Bible thoroughly annotated, revised, and with a foreword by Richard Dawkins?

infmom.net

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#8 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 4:26 PM   
Beth S/SL-Writing Biz
 
From  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz  Posts 10179  Last 9:15 AM
To  Marte Brengle      [Msg # 65822.8 Message 65822.8 replying to 65822.7 65822.7 ]    

Marte,

Alex's quote didn't say anything about the original text being altered. Where does that information come from?

Assuming it's true, though, as long as that fact is made clear up front (I agree with whoever said it was unethical not to state that either on the cover or in the foreword), then I should think the group has a right to attach any introduction they like and distribute it if they want. The intended recipients have a right to refuse it, or take it and either read it or trash it. Or both. <g>

As to the Bible, annotated and revised versions are made available all the time.That's nothing new. 

People get worked up over the funniest things.

~Beth

Visit The Stone River

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#9 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 6:05 PM   
Marte Brengle
 
From  Marte Brengle  Posts 1279  Last 1:34 PM
To  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz      [Msg # 65822.9 Message 65822.9 replying to 65822.8 65822.8 ]    
According to this article, there are two editions of the creationist Darwin in circulation, one of which has had several chapters removed.

As for annotated and revised versions of the Bible, certainly (I have a well worn copy of the Oxford Annotated, myself) but the question still remains, would you be happy to accept one that was treated by a prominent atheist the way the creationists treated this "special edition" of Darwin?  Would you read it, to see where your previous readings had been misinformed, as the creationists hope to do with those who accept Darwin's views?

(As an aside, I did note with great amusement that someone's working on a "conservative" version of the Bible.  Apparently the inerrant word of God is too darn full of errors for their liking and they're jolly well going to put a stop to that.  I am sure God is very amused.)

infmom.net

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#10 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 9:01 PM   
John Woram
 
From  John Woram  Posts 433  Last 10:37 AM
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.10 Message 65822.10 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    
"The works of Charles Darwin, the discoverer of evolution, are long since in the public domain."
First, a technicality: C. D. didn't "discover" evolution. The theory had been kicking around for years, centuries even -- in fact, even his grand-father Erasmus D. wrote about it in his "Zoonomia".

"Does that make them open territory for those who would dispute them?"
Sure, why not? Everyone has the right to dispute whatever they want to dispute. But unfortunately, it's not against the law to claim that someone such as Darwin said something (which he didn't) and then launch a counter-attack against that claim. Witness the various claims that Darwin said we were descended from apes, thus "proving" that he was an atheist, or some such similar nonsense. Actually, Darwin said no such thing, and his personal religious views have nothing to do with the validity of his theories, which in turn have nothing whatsover to do with religion.

"It's certainly legal to republish The Origin of Species with new material.  ...  But is it ethical?"
Uh, in this case it's not "new" material -- it's a distorted introduction, combined with the deletion of certain sections of the original work that can't be explained away by the bogus intro. Apparently, the editors (perpetrators?) lack the wit to present a viable alternative to Darwin to suit their own biases, so they choose instead to distort what the man actually said, and then argue against it. Illegal? Perhaps not. Ethical? Definitely not. But then, ethics was never high on their list of priorities. And it's no crime to lack ethics.

Somehow or other, this reminds me of Justice Jones' comment after the Dover trials about the "breataking inanity" of the creationists' case.

 


 

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#11 of 91

     Posted Nov-18 9:45 PM   
John S. Kruszka/Sysop
 
From  John S. Kruszka/Sysop  Posts 5017  Last 5:23 AM
To  Alex Krislov / Forum Manager      [Msg # 65822.11 Message 65822.11 replying to 65822.1 65822.1 ]    

Here's Scientific American's announcement of the book, with a link to a brief podcast and text. The comments alone are worth reading.

Darwin in Battle of Wits against Unarmed Man
Antievolutionist Ray Comfort will be distributing copies of the Origin of Species with a new introduction that misrepresents, misunderstands and distorts Darwin's ideas and legacy

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#12 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 12:53 AM   
Marte Brengle
 
From  Marte Brengle  Posts 1279  Last 1:34 PM
To  John S. Kruszka/Sysop      [Msg # 65822.12 Message 65822.12 replying to 65822.11 65822.11 ]    
Kind of like Thomas Huxley taking on Soapy Sam Wilberforce again.  :)

infmom.net

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#13 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 3:13 AM   
jillmccaw
 
From  jillmccaw  Posts 1099  Last 8:50 AM
To  Margaret Campbell/Sysop      [Msg # 65822.13 Message 65822.13 replying to 65822.2 65822.2 ]    
That's a very interesting site Margaret. I had no idea there were resources like this out there. It might help me next time my Creationist sister and I make the mistake of visiting the natural history section of the National Museum again. (Our highly embarassed children had to seperate us.)

cheers
Jill
McCaw Media
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#14 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 7:15 AM   
Barbara Rogan
 
From  Barbara Rogan  Posts 1539  Last 7:31 AM
To  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz      [Msg # 65822.14 Message 65822.14 replying to 65822.8 65822.8 ]    
Hi Beth.

People get worked up over the funniest things

That sounded more than a bit patronizing, which I'm sure you didn't intend. In any case, I don't think it is a trivial matter. The fact is, a large proportion of Americans don't "believe" in evolution because they feel it contradicts their religion, just as many of Galileos' contemporaries saw heresy in his claim that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.  Willful ignorance on that scale is a huge problem for this country, not just the individuals.

Re. this specific book: I think what people most object to is the fact (assuming it's true) that Darwin's book was edited to omit evidence of evolution; and that the preface is couched in language that mimics scientific language. Obviously the idea is to confuse youngsters into believing that there's dissent in the scientific community about evolution and "intelligent design." There's nothing trivial about that.

Barbara
www.barbararogan.com
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#15 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 7:39 AM   
Margaret Campbell/Sysop
 
From  Margaret Campbell/Sysop  Posts 1092  Last 12:36 PM
To  jillmccaw      [Msg # 65822.15 Message 65822.15 replying to 65822.13 65822.13 ]    (Unread)
There are lots of sites like this.

I knew about Schermer's site, so I searched for others, and just picked one off the list.

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#16 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 9:15 AM   
Beth S/SL-Writing Biz
 
From  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz  Posts 10179  Last 9:15 AM
To  Marte Brengle      [Msg # 65822.16 Message 65822.16 replying to 65822.9 65822.9 ]    

Marte,

<<would you be happy to accept one that was treated by a prominent atheist the way the creationists treated this "special edition" of Darwin?  Would you read it, to see where your previous readings had been misinformed>>

I doubt it. But that doesn't mean I think someone should be prevented from producing such a work or distributing it. Unlike some, I don't believe in the suppression of opinion or ideas, no matter how much they may differ from my own. This whole kerfuffle about the bowdlerized Darwin reveals as much about those who are trying to stop it as it does about the perpetrators.

<<I did note with great amusement that someone's working on a "conservative" version of the Bible.  Apparently the inerrant word of God is too darn full of errors for their liking and they're jolly well going to put a stop to that.>>

One thing I have learned in life is that the world is full of bizarre patterns of thinking.

~Beth

 

 

Visit The Stone River

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#17 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 9:24 AM   
Beth S/SL-Writing Biz
 
From  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz  Posts 10179  Last 9:15 AM
To  Barbara Rogan      [Msg # 65822.17 Message 65822.17 replying to 65822.14 65822.14 ]    

Barbara,

You're right--I didn't intend to sound patronizing, an attitude which I dislike and try never to project.

I am just rather bemused by the whole affair. I did say I thought that secretly bowdlerizing the text was unethical--and honestly, if that's necessary in order to support an argument, then the argument is built on matchsticks.

But beyond that, I don't see that it's a big deal. People have a right to believe what they want, even if it flies in the face of generally accepted knowledge. And maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't this intended to be distributed at universities?* Certainly college kids are of an age that we don't have to fear exposing them to new ideas and possible misinformation. They get that all the time anyway.

~Beth

(*I went back to check, and I was right. This material is not intended to be distributed to children.)

Visit The Stone River


Edited Nov-19   by  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz
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#18 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 10:12 AM   
Carol K.
 
From  Carol K.  Posts 6741  Last 8:16 AM
To  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz      [Msg # 65822.18 Message 65822.18 replying to 65822.17 65822.17 ]    
Dear Beth,

<<But beyond that, I don't see that it's a big deal. People have a right to believe what they want, even if it flies in the face of generally accepted knowledge.>>

Well, yes and no, IMO.

It always comes back to the same problem.

What we believe to be so is not necessarily a universal truth.

And when people try to posit their beliefs as universal truths, factually sound, scientifically, historically or otherwise when they are not --  and when they further try to impose these personal values on the majority, then it _is_ a big deal. It is ignorance of a willful kind on a massive scale.

As such, this ignorance is neither enriching, ennobling, or helpful to any societies at large, for it attempts to diminish, even dismiss, whole vistas of knowledge, thereby reducing its members' abilities to deal with factual realities.

One wonders why these people (like Kirk Cameron) have nothing better to do. If abrogating scientific knowledge is the only thing they can come up with, then what does that say about their so-called belief systems? Probably it speaks to their massive insecurities or worse, their indignant righteousness.

Carol



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#19 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 12:05 PM   
Beth S/SL-Writing Biz
 
From  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz  Posts 10179  Last 9:15 AM
To  Carol K.      [Msg # 65822.19 Message 65822.19 replying to 65822.18 65822.18 ]    

Carol,

<<And when people try to posit their beliefs as universal truths, factually sound, scientifically, historically or otherwise when they are not --  and when they further try to impose these personal values on the majority, then it _is_ a big deal. >>

Only if those people have the power to do so through legally granted authority or force of arms.

Otherwise, they are powerless to impose their beliefs on others, try though they might, because others have the right--and the power--to reject those beliefs.

Kirk Cameron et al have no power, no authority, only the force of their convictions. People are free to accept or reject creationism or intelligent design or whatever is being posited. No one is being coerced. So, no, in this case, it's not a big deal. Rather, to allow it and then either to embrace or ignore it is the mark of a free society. To attempt to suppress such things...well, we know where that leads.

~Beth

Visit The Stone River

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#20 of 91

     Posted Nov-19 12:12 PM   
Liz Gaspar
 
From  Liz Gaspar  Posts 739  Last 10:21 AM
To  Beth S/SL-Writing Biz      [Msg # 65822.20 Message 65822.20 replying to 65822.19 65822.19 ]    

Hi Beth -

I agree, at least as far as adults and high school/college age students.

- Liz

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Journalism/NonFic

A Gift for Darwin: Creationism!

  
 
     

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