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Christians in 2006
Topic: Solutions for the new Century

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Christian Morals

Carter Exits Church Ov Treatment Of Wome

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#1 of 60 Posted Jul-20 4:35 PM

From Noelle Posts 452 Last Nov-19
To All [Msg # 119576.1 ]

Ria Misra

Click here:Jimmy Carter Leaves Church Over Treatment of Women

Posted:

07/20/09

Filed Under:Religion, Woman Up

EXCERPT

"The truth is that male religious leaders have had -- and still have -- an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world.

After watching everyone from philandering politicians to Iran's president taking a sudden look heavenwards when the roof starts to come down on them, it's refreshing to see Carter calling out the role of religion in the mistreatment of women.

The question for Carter -- and for others who find themselves at odds with leadership -- is, when a group you're deeply involved in starts to move away from your own core beliefs, do you stay and try to change from within or, at some point, do you have to look for the exit? Carter did give the former a shot -- in recent years publicly criticizing and distancing himself from church leadership, while staying involved with his church. Now, he's seeing if absence might do what presence did not."

Comments anyone?

Noelle

#2 of 60 Posted Jul-20 4:57 PM

From Richard W. Posts 9502 Last 2:34 PM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.2 119576.1 ]

Noelle,

<<< Comments anyone?

Wasn't he Baptist?

Richard W.

#3 of 60 Posted Jul-20 5:15 PM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.3 119576.1 ]

>>"The truth is that male religious leaders have had -- and still have -- an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. <<

From the article:

After more than 60 years together, Jimmy Carter has announced himself at odds with the Southern Baptist Church -- and he's decided it's time they go their separate ways. Via Feministing, the former president called the decision "unavoidable" after church leaders prohibited women from being ordained and insisted women be "subservient to their husbands."

Those nasty Southern Baptists - how dare they follow the plain teaching of the New Testament? The nerve!

Janet

#4 of 60 Posted Jul-20 6:50 PM

From Noelle Posts 452 Last Nov-19
To Richard W. [Msg # 119576.4 119576.2 ]

R..>Wasn't he Baptist?<

Yes, he is Southern Baptist. Click on the title above excerpt and read entire article.

Noelle

#5 of 60 Posted Jul-20 7:15 PM

From Noelle Posts 452 Last Nov-19
To Janet [Msg # 119576.5 119576.3 ]

Carter...>>"The truth is that male religious leaders have had -- and still have -- an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. <<

Janet..>From the article:

After more than 60 years together, Jimmy Carter has announced himself at odds with the Southern Baptist Church -- and he's decided it's time they go their separate ways. Via Feministing, the former president called the decision "unavoidable" after church leaders prohibited women from being ordained and insisted women be "subservient to their husbands."

Those nasty Southern Baptists - how dare they follow the plain teaching of the New Testament? The nerve!<<

Janet...

It sounds as if he's blaming the Southern Baptists for all women who are subjugated and persecuted all around the world!

Personally, I find what Paul said of cultural significance, but I believe that women can teach classes at church, lead a Bible study or fellowship group and be in leadership positions. However, I'm not sure what Carter is alluding to when he says that women must be "subservient to their husbands."

I believe that if more women were in fact submissive to their husbands (as the Bible teaches) the divorce rate wouldn't be so high. (I don't mean if one's husband is a philandering jerk either.)

One of the classes at church that should be taught to single and young women is "A Future Husband and What to Look for." Same for the men.
Teach the young women and singles that if you can't respect the man your planning to marry, forget then about marriage!

For some odd reason, Christians (like Carter) seem to be getting the "order" mixed up with being "subjugated."
Do you know any American women who are 'subjugated?'

It sounds as if he's mixing up cultures. The Middle Eastern Muslim world routinely abuses women for their precious "honor system." They could care less how the West treat their women, as they generally believe that Western women are out of control and whorish anyway.

Noelle

#6 of 60 Posted Jul-20 7:54 PM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.6 119576.5 ]

>>Do you know any American women who are 'subjugated?'<<

In my entire life I've known only one personally. She was/is to be pitied. But unless we're talking about men who are pathological abusers, I think most so-called subjugated women in American society have actually trained their husbands to treat them badly by virtue of not standing up to them immediately and in ways that get their attention. I speak of the cast iron skillet applied skillfully and with moderate force to the male cerebellum. Often, if necessary.

That said, I'm perfectly willing to submit graciously to my husband as long as he's upholding his end: loving me selflessly as Christ loved the church and sacrificed for it to the point of death. If not, all bets are off. (And in my house, iron skillets have been used strictly for cooking. Up to this point, that is.)

>>It sounds as if he's blaming the Southern Baptists for all women who are subjugated and persecuted all around the world!<<

He referred to multi-cultural phenomena but the only ones he had the courage to condemn are American Southern Baptists. He'd bite his tongue off before he'd name Islamists by name. And we all know that asking - asking, not compelling - American women to submit graciously to their husbands per scripture and refusing to let them be pastors/priests are much more horrible offenses than, say, forcing an Islamic woman to have a clitorectomy or to wear garb that covers everything but their eyeballs or refusing them an education. Oh, well.

>> The Middle Eastern Muslim world... could care less how the West treat their women, as they generally believe that Western women are out of control and whorish anyway.<<

Pardon me for saying so, but in some respects they have a point. Until the middle of the 20th century, women in our society largely the moral gatekeepers for American society. Then they decided to "be like men" and society has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Janet

Edited Jul-20 by Janet

#7 of 60 Posted Jul-20 8:14 PM

From FATHERJIMPARKER Posts 5235 Last 6:18 PM
To Janet [Msg # 119576.7 119576.6 ]

My wife was totally subjet to my will. I made all the big decisions like who would win the war and who would be president and how to fix the world.

I let her handle all the little stuff like where we would live, what kind of car we would drive, what clothers to wear, where to send the kids to school, where to go on vacation, what kind of food to eat, when I should take out the trash and mow the lawn......

And we were happy.

As for Jimmy Carter, he continues to be an embarassment for the USA. (Poor Billy.)

Edited Jul-20 by FATHERJIMPARKER

#8 of 60 Posted Jul-20 8:25 PM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To FATHERJIMPARKER [Msg # 119576.8 119576.7 ]

>>My wife was totally subjet to my will. I made all the big decisions like who would win the war and who would be president and how to fix the world. I let her handle all the little stuff like where we would live,what kind of car we would drive, what clothers to wear, where to send the kids to school.... <<

Sounds like an ideal household!

>>As for Jimmy Carter, he continues to be an embarassment for the USA. (Poor Billy.)<<

Could you ever have imagined that Jimmah would surpass Billy as a national embarrassment? Billy is starting to look like the one with sense and taste.

Janet

#9 of 60 Posted Jul-20 8:48 PM

From FATHERJIMPARKER Posts 5235 Last 6:18 PM
To Janet [Msg # 119576.9 119576.8 ]

Billy doesn't seem to think he's "somebody."

#10 of 60 Posted Jul-20 8:50 PM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To FATHERJIMPARKER [Msg # 119576.10 119576.9 ]

>>Billy doesn't seem to think he's "somebody."<<

No, he only WANTS to be "somebody." Anybody.

Janet

#11 of 60 Posted Jul-20 9:08 PM

From Noelle Posts 452 Last Nov-19
To Janet [Msg # 119576.11 119576.6 ]

J..>I think most so-called subjugated women in American society have actually trained their husbands to treat them badly by virtue of not standing up to them immediately and in ways that get their attention. <

I don't know anyone that doesn't stand up to their husbands. All the Christian women I know absolutely rule the roost.
In fact one of my friends is almost getting a divorce over it. She was not about to take any advice...So now her husband spends all his time in the garage playing drums, sleeps on the couch and never takes her anywhere anymore. He rarely speaks to her. It's sad.

N...>>It sounds as if he's blaming the Southern Baptists for all women who are subjugated and persecuted all around the world!<<

J...>>He referred to multi-cultural phenomena but the only ones he had the courage to condemn are American Southern Baptists. He'd bite his tongue off before he'd name Islamists by name. And we all know that asking - asking, not compelling - American women to submit graciously to their husbands per scripture and refusing to let them be pastors/priests are much more horrible offenses than, say, forcing an Islamic woman to have a clitorectomy or to wear garb that covers everything but their eyeballs or refusing them an education.<<

Ah yes Janet, you hit the nail on the head, this is the crux of the matter I think. He is not being honest but sounding kind of cowardly. It's wrong for him to blame the Southern Baptists for all the abuse that goes on in the world. The Bible scriptures are not harsh towards women....You expressed the above paragraph well.

J..>> The Middle Eastern Muslim world... could care less how the West treat their women, as they generally believe that Western women are out of control and whorish anyway.<<

J..> Until the middle of the 20th century, women in our society largely the moral gatekeepers for American society. Then they decided to "be like men" and society has gone to hell in a handbasket.<

I think that women have never had it better and it's a great time for women, but our society took it too far...personally I think there was a push to get women out of the house purely for tax reasons.

Now they could tax two incomes instead of one.

Noelle

Edited Jul-20 by Noelle

#12 of 60 Posted Jul-20 9:16 PM

From Noelle Posts 452 Last Nov-19
To FATHERJIMPARKER [Msg # 119576.12 119576.7 ]

J...>I let her handle all the little stuff like where we would live, what kind of car we would drive, what clothers to wear...<

Every Sunday morning we go through the same thing. He puts something on and I say, "Please don't wear that, put something else on." Then he says, "Well then you pick." So I have to go to the closet and choose what he will wear....I also have to iron it too, because he has so many clothes packed in our closet. (He doesn't iron well either, so I'm elected to do that, or else he will go to church with wrinkled clothing.)

Of course he does mow the lawn and take out the trash when asked. :)

Noelle

Edited Jul-20 by Noelle

#13 of 60 Posted Jul-20 10:09 PM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.13 119576.11 ]

>>personally I think there was a push to get women out of the house purely for tax reasons. Now they could tax two incomes instead of one.<<

I'm sure we'll find the Catholic Church and the Pope at the bottom of it.

>>I don't know anyone that doesn't stand up to their husbands. All the Christian women I know absolutely rule the roost.

Whoa - I didn't mean to imply that women should rule the roost in the ~~hen~~ house. That is just as awful as subjugation. We all instinctively know that women are not intended to rule the roost, and that is proved over and over again by our attitude toward submissive husbands: we heap ridicule on henpecked men.

Janet

#14 of 60 Posted Jul-20 11:52 PM

From Noelle Posts 452 Last Nov-19
To Janet [Msg # 119576.14 119576.13 ]

>>I don't know anyone that doesn't stand up to their husbands. All the Christian women I know absolutely rule the roost.

J..>>Whoa - I didn't mean to imply that women should rule the roost in the ~~hen~~ house. That is just as awful as subjugation.<<

That's correct. It's even more awful seeing it in action, and I for one have seen too much of it in the church. This is why I said, part of the reason for the high divorce rate I believe (in part) is because of this. I don't mean all, there are many reasons for divorce, but I see how many women act towards their husbands at church and it's like they have this worldly attitude, "it's my way or the highway."

I think it's part of the feminist movement having invaded the church...along with every other ungodly thing that has found it's way in.

Noelle

Edited Jul-20 by Noelle

Edited Jul-21 by Noelle

#15 of 60 Posted Jul-21 12:15 AM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.15 119576.14 ]

>>I think it's part of the feminist movement having invaded the church..<<

Feminism has a lot to answer for.

Janet

#16 of 60 Posted Jul-21 8:07 AM

From dotcira Posts 1907 Last 6:19 PM
To Janet [Msg # 119576.16 119576.13 ]

Noelle wrote: >>personally I think there was a push to get women out of the house purely for tax reasons. Now they could tax two incomes instead of one.<<

Janet wrote: >>I'm sure we'll find the Catholic Church and the Pope at the bottom of it.

And, those awful Jesuits too! :)

Peace,

Dot

#17 of 60 Posted Jul-21 8:11 AM

From dotcira Posts 1907 Last 6:19 PM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.17 119576.14 ]

Noelle,

<<I think it's part of the feminist movement having invaded the church...along with every other ungodly thing that has found it's way in.>>

Yes, I believe that's it! The feminist movement and all the bad baggage that comes with it!

Peace,

Dot

#18 of 60 Posted Jul-21 9:46 AM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To dotcira [Msg # 119576.18 119576.16 ]

>>>>I'm sure we'll find the Catholic Church and the Pope at the bottom of it.<<<<

>>And, those awful Jesuits too! :) <<

Yeah, them too!

Janet

#19 of 60 Posted Jul-21 2:37 PM

From Found Said Posts 3277 Last 11:53 AM
To Noelle [Msg # 119576.19 119576.1 ]

This is about the "Elders", of whom Carter is a member, condemning discrimination against women based on religious tradition:

http://theelders.org/womens-initiatives

I'm guessing, Carter, in order to participate more fully in the declaration felt it necessary to distance himself completely from the traditions of the Southern Baptists, thus drawing attention to the inequality that he perceives.

#20 of 60 Posted Jul-21 2:50 PM

From Janet Posts 1328 Last 11:33 AM
To Found Said [Msg # 119576.20 119576.19 ]

>>This is about the "Elders", of whom Carter is a member, condemning discrimination against women based on religious tradition<<

I see that another member of the Elders is former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, who presided over an international body that did absolutely zero to protect women, much less advance their basic rights his tenure. His administration winked at multiple incidents of rape by UN workers themselves and documented sexual harrassment by at least two ranking UN staffers. And now he has seen the light and is concerned about women's rights. Isn't that special?

Janet

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Christian Morals

Carter Exits Church Ov Treatment Of Wome

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